Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

I am not so certain. I see Liston v godoy as a heavyweight version of Hagler v Anterfermo1.

 

Of course they do. That's my point. You made a statement that was foolish and I explained why. We could make a laundry list of fighters "deserving wins" if we are going to start the line at LaStarza-Marciano I.

The KD in the second fight basically sealed the fight for the official judging (Although I had Marquez winning regardless).

It's not about what I think. I'm just saying what you think based on your own argument/logic. I'm not the one who reduced boxing to a tough man contest when speed differences between punchers is negligible. :good

 

How is it foolish? I'm saying his being unbeaten is a matter of interpretation. You could make a laundry list and anyone who is interested enough will seek as much legitimacy as possible when breaking down resumes. I certainly don't credit louis with 2 victories over jersey nor do I credit ali with victories over young, norton or shavers.

Thankyou for proving my point with the kd in the pac jmm rematch :good

You're not saying what I think with my logic. You're saying what you think. As I said, start a thread and see what opinions, breakdowns and stylistic comparisons get brought up :good

 

First of all my Uncles were at the fight and rooting for Lastarza because they were from the NY and so was Lastarza,but they said Marciano Knocked him down and landed the harder punches and they all gave it to Marciano and they felt it was clear and they all loved Roland but after the fight they stopped betting on the other guy and became believers of the guy from Brockton MA

 

Let's cut the bull****. It's foolish to say LaStarza deserved the 1st Marciano bout when you haven't seen one bit of footage, and when the contemporary thought on such a fight was split 50/50. There are no valid grounds interpretation that can question Marciano's unbeaten record, unless you can somehow prove he didn't win the LaStarza fight, When there's no footage the burden of proof is on you. Who cares anyway? I hate when people suggest that Marciano would've have been an ATG HW if he had one loss on his record.

So you give no credit to Ali for all the Norton fights?

Of course I'm using your logic. Amnesia?

George Foreman

6'3 1/2
79'
224 Pounds

Sonny Liston

6' 1/2
84'
212 Pounds

To be fair, I've seen measurements for Foreman as tall as 6'4 and his reach as big as 82 inches but used the smaller measurements. Liston has the reach advantage but who's the bigger, stronger man?

 

George Foreman

HEIGHT - 6ft 3in
WEIGHT - 217 1/2lb
REACH - 82in
CHEST (NOR) - 42in
CHEST (EXP) - 44 1/2in
FIST - 12in

Sonny Liston

HEIGHT - 6ft 1in
WEIGHT - 214lb
REACH - 84in
CHEST (NOR) - 44in
CHEST (EXP) - 46 1/2in
FIST 15in

Foreman was taller. Liston had the superior measurements. I misplaced them but he measured bigger in the thighs and arms too. You could make a case for him being the stronger man as well.

 

Shorter people generally have bigger measurements (Thigh, shoulders, chest, neck, etc). I'm sure if you checked the thigh measurements Liston would have bigger thighs, too. Hard to know the accuracy of such measurements for sure. Dempsey advocates have touted about Dempsey's measurement to prove his true size and that he was a big HW that could compete with bigger HWs. His measurements are seemingly listed bigger than Louis'? Sometimes it's the eye test in this case that's best.

Your stats are slanted anyhow. You take Liston's tallest measurement. Liston was lucky to be 6'1. Ali towered him and Ali is measured at 6'3 although Dundee claims he's 6'2 1/2. Foreman tallest measurement is 6'4. You did the same with weight. Stretched his highest prime weight and took Foreman's lowest prime weight (A weigh in Foreman dehydrated severely for).

Although maybe it's just this angle that makes Liston look so much shorter. :huh

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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC3NMsxHDLM&feature=related[/ame]


6:11

All those towels won't make you any taller Sonny.

 

You wouldn't think Liston's blowfish act would fool people decades later who have his actual measurements on hand, but, oddly, it still does. People are still going "I know he wasn't tall or heavy but he was ENORMOUS compared to people who were only slightly lighter and shorter." :blood

 

Reports favour la starza. There's no footage of walker v flowers but i'm happy the wrong man won.

Wait, you're saying that rocky wouldn't be great if the judges would have scored it for roland? You foolish hater. Rocky is great because he cleaned out his era, not because he got the benefit of the doubt as a prospect.

Again, you're using your logic. Like I said, make a thread about it kid, see what responses you get.

 

This is "towering" to you?

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Keep in mind that Clay has about a 1-2 inch afro. Even with it Clay still only looks a couple inches taller than Sonny to me. Everywhere I've looked Sonny is listed as being 6'1. I've spoken to several people who knew Sonny. They all say he was 6'1. So who is "slanting" things here to convenience his arguement? You said I took Liston's "tallest" measurement. Where did you take yours from exactly?

Speaking of "towering", ever seen a tower fall in increments?-

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Regarding weights, unlike GF, Sonny wasn't fighting a bunch of hand picked tomatoes on his way up the ladder, so he was training down to a lean and mean fight weight. When GF was on his way up and bothered to train hard (which judging by his stamina issues and weights against bums vs. his weights against live fighters, was seldom) he was usually 215-218 lbs. It's obvious he was training for possible threats like Chuvalo, Kirkman (1970 version), Peralta and Frazier. But when facing bums like Clarence Boone and Ted Gullick he doesn't train and bloats up to 220-plus pounds. The weights I gave were about what they were for their title fights. And I don't believe for one second that GF was severely dehydrated for his bout with Frazier.

Sonny Liston's workouts(before he got cocky) were so brutal they were legendary. Davey Pearl, who worked out often with Liston, told me that the reason Sonny was able to get down to such low weights is because he sweated more than any fighter Pearl had ever seen. He couldn't jog for 5 minutes without sweat coming off him in buckets. I'm sure if he took a more lax, Foreman-esque approach he would have retained some of that water and come in at the 220 range much more often. Heck, in 1961 he came in at 219 1/2 for Howard King. Maybe he DID take a GF approach for that one.

 

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GF is craning his head forward a tad, but unless he has a turkey neck he's not going to be stretching over 2 inches taller than Sonny if he brings his head up. Sonny appears to be leaning a bit to his left himself. Point being, judging by the pics we have of both Clay and George standing next to Sonny(and going by the eye test method that you advocate) it's safe to say that Liston is 6'1 .

Cheers :good

 

I'm sorry, I meant wouldn't have been an ATG. People suggest that if didn't have an unblemished record he wouldn't have been a great HW all of a sudden.

What reports? I've seen splits in the reports.

Actually using your logic. Why would I make a thread on it. I have zero interest in that, just your flawed arguments.

 

Okay, Liston is 6'1. Foreman is 6'4 then.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3CwnDvcG8E[/ame]


What's all this stuff about Liston's workouts being legendary and him training down. I'm sure you Liston fans think he trained down more than Marciano all of a sudden. Why do you think Foreman's weight was so erratic? It's because Saddler drained him. It's a fact. Foreman sweated out before fights more than Liston did. Why do you think Foreman talked about being more comfortable around 230 pounds post-Ali and during the Toronto escapade. It's because he got rid of Saddler and stopped killing himself sweating out...

 

His greatness is from cleaning out his era, not from being unbeaten. As I say, loads of fighters could retire if they wanted to.

I've not seen any reports favouring rocky bar bummy's story bout his uncles.

I don't know why you'd make a thread. You thought the point was valid enough to raise, maybe you are lacking confidence in your opinion?