Lost arts in boxing

Same-day weigh-ins limited extreme cuts, sure, but that doesn’t suddenly make Inoue a featherweight or Crawford a 154 fighter.

And it cuts both ways. Guys like Robinson and Hearns were also big for their divisions in their own eras, they just operated under different rules. Same-day weigh-ins didn’t mean fighters were at their natural size, it just limited how far they could push it. Robinson clearly wasn’t a small welterweight either, he fought all the way up to 175.

If you give modern fighters same-day weigh-ins, they’d come in lighter. If you give older fighters modern weigh-ins, they’d come in heavier. You can’t only adjust one side.

At the end of the day, you judge fighters in the divisions they actually fought in, not by inflating them into weight classes they never competed in.

 

I didn't mention Usyk, but he's in no way a lock for champion in any era. He's just about capable of it and its because heavyweight is either the weakest or second weakest original division.

I'm not artificially doing anything, boxing did that to itself when it changed how weigh ins work. If Crawford and Inoue are to be champion in any era, they either need to cut the 10-20lbs they cut to get to their weights today (sometimes as little as a few hours before the fight) or move up. If you think Crawford can cut down from 170 to 147 with only half a day to rehydration, then beat Ray Leonard, you're mental. Having him fight at 160 just makes sense and is exactly what he would do. Just like how if Inoue had to fight at 130, he'd never fight against Ruben Olivares at 118, because he'd have to fight Ismael Laguna or Vicente Saldivar at 126 or 130.

But you understand this, of course you do, you're always banging on about guys being bigger today and how that's an advantage they have.

I did keep them in their actual weight ranges - what they weigh, not the name of the division they fought in.

 

Can't think of too many fighters pre 80s as a favorite over him tbh

The issue is you're assuming modern fighters would show up the exact same weight as they are today under completely different rules.

Same-day weigh-ins don’t magically make Crawford a 160 fighter or Inoue a featherweight, they just change how much weight they’d cut. Fighters would adapt to the rules, not keep cutting 15–20 lbs and fight a few hours later.

And this cuts both ways. Guys like Sugar Ray Robinson and Thomas Hearns were also big for their divisions. Same-day weigh-ins didn’t mean fighters were at their natural size, it just limited how far they could push it. Remember Robinson literally went up to 175 and Hearns to CW.

So no, you’re not keeping them in their “actual weight,” you’re inflating modern fighters based on a system that wouldn’t exist in that era.

If Crawford fought back then, he wouldn’t be a drained 170 trying to make 147 in a few hours, he’d come in lighter, just like everyone else did.

 

They only became "encumbered" because the rules and gear changed. Taking away detached-thumb gloves changed the sport and the types of punches and parries you can use.

Also, clinching is stopped much too early by refs now. Most fighters rely on the refs to just break them apart rather than actually fighting their way out of a clinch, which necessitates a form of grappling.

 

Yeah, I always try to feel my opponent's hands before the match even begins, to glean whatever I can from the situation. It's often what actually causes the fight.

 

For a while until Kabayel came onto the scene, bodypunchers seemed to be dying out a bit.

 

Better, more fast-twitched athletes changed the skill set from hard hat, lunch pail guys to slick fighters and fighters who could rewrite the rules around their athleticism. Bigger, more athletic heavies certainly changed the rules. The risk became too high and the reward too elusive.

 

I think both can be true. I stand by what I said, but I don't disagree that athletes in almost all sports are now technically more athletic due to improved diets and understanding of sports sciences.

However, I would love to see newer fighters incorporate some of the lost fighting techniques, and test out their impacts. Too many fighters are just fighting as clones of each other now.

 

On the Inoue side note, he has stated himself that he walks around at 63kg+ (about 140lbs). See:

https://news.tv-asahi.co.jp/news_sports/articles/000279907.html?display=full

Inoue has been reported as 140lbs+ in ring before. I'm pretty sure this is the same as Lomachenko's in ring weights! All of Inoue's Super Bantam in ring weights have been recorded in Japanese articles, with nearly all of them being between 135lbs and 140lbs. Crazy.

 

Not when you realize his opponents are the same size at fight night, and most often bigger then him.

 

The lost art of the ref telling them to stop ****ing clinching or you get disqualified.

 

Yeah, but that's you being ridiculous and absolutely wanking over Usyk.

No, that is categorically not what I'm assuming. You have quite literally just wrote out my exact reasoning for them not fighting at the weights they fight at today and misunderstood it for a reason why they would.

Yes, they would cut less weight and fight at higher weights than do today...

Crawford with less time to rehydrate would not fight at 135, 140 or 147 because he couldn't make it safely down without impacting his performance, therefore he'd fight 154 or more likely 160. Same with Inoue. There's absolutely no way without modern dehydration and rehydration that he makes 118 long enough to reach a title.

No, I am keeping them at the weight they enter the ring at and inferring the weight they would have to cut to with less time - what you are doing is shrinking them to compete at the same divisions they do today. Why do you think people cut today? It's to be bigger at a lower weight class; with less time to fit they don't get down to as low a weight class.

Either way, this aside - well, aside - your idea that they'd be champion in any era is ridiculous. They'd be elite in any era no doubt, but there's absolutely eras with one title where they wouldn't be the best in the world and therefore, do not become champion.

Also, Hearns went up to 175 after the weigh ins changed and Robinson weighed 157 when he fought Maxim. Absolutely terrible examples.

 

Usyk champion in any era? No.....

 

Well, not literally, SRR was 157lbs when he challenged for Maxim's LHW title.

 

I mean Usyk would have a physical advantage over most HWs till around the 80s-90s. Would have a style advantage because southpaws were rare until now and most fighters wouldn't be used to dealing with one. And he's one of the most skilled HWs ever. So I don't really see how what I said isn't a defensible statement. As much as ik you don't like the idea of a modern fighter actually being superior to past greats.

Again you missing my point and still assuming their current rehydrated size is the minimum they could make under different rules, and there’s no real basis for that.

Crawford started at lightweight in the amateurs and Naoya Inoue started at light flyweight both under same-day weigh-ins. So clearly they can make lower weights without modern rehydration, they just wouldn’t be draining themselves as much as they do now.

That doesn’t suddenly push Crawford to 160 or Inoue to 126+, it just means they’d come in lighter overall, like fighters did in that era.

And the Inoue featherweight point especially doesn’t make sense he’s never even fought there, so you’re projecting him upwards based on a version of him that only exists with modern cutting.