Marciano-I Just Don't Understand It

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janwalshs, Aug 2, 2010.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What I think,what in fact I know is Marciano did not fight Valdes when Valdes was the number one contender during the period I mentioned. This blows the statement that Marciano always defended against his number one challenger,that he gave all deserving challengers a shot ,completely out of the water!

    ps Lastarza lost to a journeymen light heavyweight Rocky Jones two fights before he got his title shot.
    Should he have been disqualified from his challenge because of that loss?
    Charles had lost two of his previous four fights when he got the call to fight Rocky.
    You can't have it both ways Fella!
     
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Nino Valdes stank. He was a mauling Oaf. And not very clever. When he fought James J Parker people walked out. It was difficult for Nino to be seen as a serious threat to the title after that and the memory of him losing to so many lightheavyweights like Moore and Johnson. That said, he was in line after beating Marcianos sparring partner Huricane Jackson but an immediate rematch with Charles blew interest in Nino Valdes right out of the water. With tax issues preventing the champion fighting more than twice a year it was down to Nino to stay interesting before Marciano could next fight. But he wasn’t. Even Don represented marginally more appeal and no more threat than Valdes.

    there were some action packed moments in the final 3 rounds but the first 12 were not faster than Marciano-Charles.

    I disagree. That fight was fought at a walk.

    I already explained Charles was just 2 years older and they fought a faster paced 15 fight than any other two heavyweights.

    The stamina of the men Marciano fought was not an issue in any of their title fights with Rocky.

    Holmes was a great fighter. There is no taking anything away from him. But it’s a bit silly to try and reduce the standing of another great champion simply because he didn’t fight the men Larry did. The credentials of Witherspoon were a bit light at the time and some people think Larry struggled to win the Norton fight. I don’t think any of them were great fighters anyway. Shavers, Norton And Cooney, in the scheme of ATG things were not champions.

    Louis was nowhere near as washed up as you would want people to believe. Of course he was not the same as his incredible championship form but Louis was coming off impressive wins over Cesar Brion who gave as difficult a nights work to Ezzard Charles and Rex Layne. Joe also handled Jimmy Bivins who was still a good fighter.

    Nino was not regarded as much of a draw as Don Cokkell who had the more glamorous recent wins which beside Nino Valdes recent form made it look like there was very little between them so far as worthwhile contenders go. Commissioner Christonberry went on record to say “there is very little between them”. The only challenger considered anything of a threat to Rocky at that time was Archie Moore. He twice beat Valdes. Archie beat the other top heavyweight, Bob Baker senseless too.

    the two fights included a revenge win over Jones and a decision over Rex Layne in what was effectively seen as an eliminator in light of Laynes recent decision over Ezzard Charles. This totally eclipses the Jones blip.

    oh yeah Charles lost a close decision to (Philadelphian) Harold Johnson (in Philadelphia) that could have went either way right after losing to (Cuban) Nino Valdes (in Cuban Miami). The Valdes fight Nino won, but even in winning the Cuban, who at that time was pretty unknown, had been closest to losing by knockout than Charles was who had underprepared and faded later in the fight after failing to finish Valdes off. Rather than fight a rematch with Charles in an eliminator to fight Marciano Nino went off and took other fights to improve his reputation, one of which totally stank and effectively put nino behind the likes of Moore and Cokkell as a viable challenge to Marciano. Meanwhile Bob Satterfeild took Ninos place in the eliminator and nearly had his block knocked off by Ezzard. This was after Charles totally schooled Coley Wallace an up and coming full sized heavyweight who beat Marciano as an amateur.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No you use the uppercut on the short swarmer ,ie Marciano no need at all to crouch to deliver it,try it yourself.
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Do you actually know how many turned up for the Cokkell fight? Every newspaper both side of the Atlantic said it was a mismatch,that Cokkell had no chance. Charles was two years older but with 96 fights on his clock ,over twice as many as Marciano!
    Bottom line which I keep repeating is ;
    VALDES WAS THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER AT THE END OF 1953 &1954 AND THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER UNTIL MAY 1955 WHEN MOORE BEAT HIM AND MARCIANO DID NOT DEFEND HIS TITLE AGAINST HIM

    It cannot be made any plainer and all your spin and irrelevant detours will not change that fact!

    Valdes whom you say "stank" had beaten Charles less than a year before Charles got his shot at Marciano!


    You're ridiculous!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  5. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Size isnt the onlying factor.

    Seamus and I are two of the very few people who really know why Mariano quit fighting. Why he let go of the heavyweight title. It wasn't his back.
    Boxing was never his true passion. Basketball was Rockys first love.
    In the summer of 1956 Rocky Marciano joined the famous Rucker League in Harlem. He played Center against them all. Wilt, Thurmond, Russell. Marciano was a bit on the short side but he had heart.
    Not even Wilt Chamberlain could stop Rocky's running hook shot. It was beautiful. He was like a gazelle out there.
     
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  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    And considering the view at the time was that there was so little between Don and Nino the press would have said EXACTLY the same about Nino too. Nino had absolutely no chance against Rocky either. Moore proved it twice.

    . Realistically, since coming home after the war, Charles was 55-7 up to fighting Marciano ..and of his defeats, had only been beaten decisively once in 62 fights. That, against a man he officially beat twice. 6 points defeats were either very close or could have went either way.

    Charles didn’t win an official professional fight from 1943 until 1946 Previous to this, as a 168lb 21 youth, Charles had clocked up 34 fights in 3 years in an almost separate career before the war.

    Nino was always behind Archie Moore in so far as being a legitimate threat to the title. He did not rematch Charles in an eliminator then later, after Nino beat Jackson, the second Charles Marciano fight went ahead over a Nino shot that would have been bad business. Then, with Moore rightfully clamouring for a shot, Nino is seen as no more attractive than Don, who goes next. After Don, Nino is given his chance of an eliminator with the far superior Moore, who has already beat Nino as well as Henry and Baker. And Nino lost that one.

    yes but you know why Charles went ahead don’t you? Nino was offered a rematch with Charles as an elimination bout to face Rocky but he opted out of it. Satterfeild stepped in and Charles flattened him. So Charles won the eliminator. Not Nino. It could have been him. Perhaps he thought he couldn’t beat Charles a second time and needed more experience? After all beating Charles, Nino had been unknown at the time, was coming off loses to Johnson, Moore and Gilliam.
     
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  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    For the record, The Boxing News incredibly picked Don Cokkell to win on points. So it isn’t true that “Every newspaper both side of the Atlantic said it was a mismatch,that Cokkell had no chance.”

    This might directly explain why the British press came down so hard on Marciano “fighting dirty”, even though he was characteristically no more dirty than any other time Rocky fought...
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  8. Dance84

    Dance84 Unicorn and seastar land Full Member

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    It comes with the territory
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    18,000 turned up to watch the Cokkell v Marciano mismatch.
    61,574 to watch Moore v Marciano
    47,585 for Charles 1
    44,562 for Lastarza 2
    Even Harry Kid Mathews and Rocky drew 31,118 and that wasnt a title fight!
    Valdes v Neuhaus 19000.
     
  10. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I would only pick the big modern day punchers to make short work of him. Boxers like Ali and Holmes would more trouble with his style and persistence.
     
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think they would tko him on cuts.
     
  12. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And I agree that could happen
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    What has any of this got to do with Boxing News picking Don Cokkell to win on points?


    Also I found this:

    “Cokkell is the best heavyweight you've ever sent to America," "No British fighter has ever made such an impression on the West Coast. ****ell could beat Marciano on the best day Rocky ever knew. Marciano can't box, he's just a crude swinger. ****ell would be too smart for him.” -Jack Hurley.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  14. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Its pertinent to you saying Cokkell was some kind of a draw against Marciano,he wasn't,it was viewed as the foregone conclusion it was.Even Marciano,that most dedicated of trainers couldn't get up for the fight.

    Jack Hurley said lot of things including telling Harry Kid Mathews he couldn't fight.How many British heavyweights had fought in the US prior to 1953,it wouldn't be hard to be better than Phil Scott would it? Cokkell obviously wasn't as good as Farr. Cokkell had beaten Mathews in the US just prior to challenging Marciano.
    Mathews was managed by Hurley, what else was Hurley going to say?Cokkel is ****? How does that make his boy look? ps
    Cokkell had just the two fights in the US before challenging Marciano,with Mathews and in one Mathews retired with a back injury,what's impressive about that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I never said he was a draw, it is true that when it was either going to be Cokkell or Nino next it was decided there wasn’t much between them. Both of them were foregone conclusions. The larger success of outdoor fights on the west coast that drew more than Nino had plus the glamour of Empire titles fairly tipped the balance in Dons favour.

    just as Nino would have been since there was nothing between them. Remember Nino is the guy who lost to Gillium, Moore and Harold Johnson. Beat Charles, opted out of a rematch with Ezzard then stank against Parker. Beat Jackson but lost momentum whist Don had a series of better regarded fights with Mathews and lastarza.

    but Hurley also said Don would win. And so did the boxing news. I think you need to acknowledge you were wrong about both sides of the Atlantic giving Don no chance. Boxing News on one side. Hurley on the other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020


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