Marciano v Liston

Folley was only a couple of years older than Brian. Folley was only months away from giving prime Ali a better fighter than Williams ever did. In fact AFTER losing to Brian London Folley took prime 1968 Bonavena to a disputed decision. I recon any fighter who took Oscar to a majority decision in Argentina proberbly got a home town shafting!!

yes but wasn't machen already struggling with mental illness at this time? Wasn't poor machen taken away for professional help soon after this blip in his career against big cat?

Terrell was poor when he lost to Williams and better after beating Williams. Before Williams Terrell dropped one fight a year, he was not anybody yet. Ernie brushed himself off, won the rematch and never looked back. It was a win (however close) that turned Terrell around. Launched him into another level. Terrell would have stopped Williams in a third fight.

only they were not rated at that time. Richer was already a two time Ko victim of Howard king and also a recent KO victim of Archie Moore. Roger had not yet registered a signature win worthy of a rating until AFTER Williams equalled Howard kings beating of him. Brian London gave Rischer his worst beating not Williams.
Daniels? He got a number 9 rating one month one time but nobody knew who he was. Young Cassius clay already beat him a year earlier. He was an opponent after that. Karl Mildenberger gave Daniels his worst beating not Williams.

 

That's true, Folley was still a live opponent at this point and the win shows that London was a better fighter than he's often given credit for. But losing a majority decision to Bonavena the following year also shows that Folley wasn't the same man who had easily handled Bonavena a couple of years earlier.

Machen suffered a breakdown some months after the Williams fight (probably at least in part because the draw wiped out his hopes of finally getting a title shot). At the time of the fight he was on a good winning streak against the likes of Brian London, Roger Rischer and Mike DeJohn, ranked no.2 contender behind Liston, and a solid favourite to beat Williams.

At the time of his loss to Williams, Terrell was unbeaten in 16 months and 5 fights since dropping a split decision to Wayne Bethea. He had never been stopped and wasn't stopped again until the last fight of his career more than 10 years later. The ability to comprehensively beat Zora Folley didn't just come to him in the 3 months separating that victory from the second Williams fight.

Rischer was not a recent ko victim of Archie Moore. He had lost to Moore six years earlier. Since then his only defeat was a decision against Machen, and after Williams crushed him he remained unbeaten for another year and a half until he was outpointed by Thad Spencer. This is why he was ranked 9th by the WBA (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VQdLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CiMNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1214,5593759).

Daniels was at the pinnacle of his career when he fought Williams, coming off good wins against Mike DeJohn and Tony Alongi since his solitary loss to Cassius Clay, and was ranked 6th (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=o54yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wOkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5027,1276027).

 

or could it mean he did just as well but got robbed because this time it was in Argentina? One judge voted for Zora anyway. Either way if Folley did better against Ali than Williams did before facing Brian London and he was good enough to take a prime bonavenna to a MD in Argentina after fighting Brian London then zora was pretty good when he fought Brian London.

with everything going pear shaped straight after that fight there is a strong possibility poor machen was already deeply disturbed and away with the fairys.

there is a big difference between losing to bethea and beating zora folley. Progress was obviously made by the point of beating folley. A point at which Williams could not have beaten Terrell on the kind if form required to beat folley since Ernie beat Williams before beating Foley. The folley win was Ernies coming out party. that's when Terrell had turned a corner. This is unlike my example of folley having good performances either side of losing to London. Terrell's good wins all came after losing to big cat.

between being knocked out by Moore and losing to machen rischer beat nobody with a rating. Joe Louis III, Howard king, young jack johnson AKA the usual suspects. journeyman circuit guys. Williams crushes a guy who beat all the guys everyone was beating. So what? Then Richer was unbeaten for what? 13 months after losing to Williams? A hand full of wins against the same kind of guys as before apart from the 1964 surprise win over Henry Cooper then roger lost to the next rated guy then lost 90% of his fights.

Dejohn was a dangerous has been. Daniels was capable but no more a world beater than Williams himself. his rating was fleeting. At most.
I have a magazine with a big write up on Alongi. He was an "already been exposed" over groomed, manufactured west coast heavyweight who got away with draws at home. Still, a fair win for Daniels all the same, beating Daniels on the strength of this is not topping anything Brian London, Karl mildenberger and a host of others did.. Williams made no more impact on heavyweight history than them either.