Marciano vs Frazier

Lets face it Frazier had a total of 37 fights his record was 32 wins vs 4 losses and a draw
In 1st his win over Bonavena he was down 2 times, he was staggered against Manuel Ramos but Ko'd RAMOS IN THE 2ND still who was Ramos he went on to win only 4 of his next 30 fights counting the Frazier loss....Buster Mathis a BIG win (who did Mathis beat) I know who he lost to but are you referring to him...so the best men Frazier beat then was 5"10 Bonevena 6" 196 lb Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis who was 6'1 200lbs...oh we Know Ali 1 was his biggest win but lets not make it that Frazier beat so many good fighters....so you think Frazier beat some great Big men who was quality, in fact WHO did Frazier fight over 200 LBS that was quality... he beat Bugner by decision, I will except that but remember Bugner hairline decisioned a38 year old Henrey Cooper who weighed in at 189 and lost to 199lb Jack"WHO" Bodell....but tell me Hassup who did Frazier beat that was a quality BIG man that was a puncher or quality other than Ali

 

1st of all, me name is Hascup.

Just beating Ali is really good enough, don't you think. I named all the others before. Very few boxing historians would pick Rocky over Ali at anytime during the mid 1960's to the mid- 1970's.

Listen, your not going to change your mind and I am not going to change mind, so let agree to disagree, as both are all-time Greats and All-Time Top 10 Heavyweights.

 

In Frazier's 12th pro fight!

You really are hanging a lot of your case on the first Bonavena fight, aren't you?

Frazier showed his great heart by getting off the canvas and prevailing in that first fight, and then dominated their second fight.

Bonavena was much more experienced than Frazier in 1966, and was awkward as hell, strong as a bull, and tough for anyone at that stage.

I would have loved to seen how Rocky would do if he was thrown in against Oscar in his 12th pro fight.

 

I'll admit that I not recall Joe Frazier getting knocked on his ass by 38 year old men.

:yep

 

Good thing that version of Frazier did not have to fight that 38 year old man.....Walcott was an acurate pinpoint power puncher and had some of the best legs up there with Ali and Tunney and Walcott had better power in either hand than Ali or Tunney

 

No insult intended...I wear contacts and have trouble seeing the keys at times, depending on which computer I use. I misspell from time to time. Frazier had the style to trouble Ali, Norton was an unorthodox swarmer of sorts and he troubled Ali. My opinion would be Marciano would give Ali more trouble than both and Ali was of the same opinion when asked who would give him the hardest fight. He said "Marciano would be my toughest opponent because he does not stop punching". Frazier also said "Ali could not rope-a -dope Marciano because he would not be able to lift his arms, Rocky would hit his arms and shoulders"

 

Let's get real. A prime Quarry, a prime Bonavena, a prime Ellis and a near prime Ali blow away Marciano's opposition ... in addition, other than a bad round v.s. Bonavena Frazier really cleanly whipped Oscar twice. Watch the fights on Youtube and it is spelled out. HE beat Bugner after his prime and it was not that close. Ramos was a huge guy , bigger than anyone Rocky fought and he caught Frazier with his best shot. It lifted Frazier up. Joe taak it incredibly well, rallied back immediately and destroyed him ...

This Frazier revisionist crap is a joke. Frazier was a warrior with a terrific chin. What people here keep forgetting was that he kept getting up v.s. Foreman. HE got up against Bonevena and was never rocked again in the other 24 rounds they fought. When he fought Bugner and later Ali twice he was blind in one eye, fighting an enormously difficult style, took the shots and came right back.

I'm not sure who wins between Joe and Rocky although I'd strongly favor Joe. I simply feel he was much faster, harder to hit, equally well conditioned, at least as strong, less prone to cuts and equally hard hitting .. I do not know if Rocky took a better shot since Rocky never fought hitters like Bonavena and Foreman. However, my point is to say there is no need to diss Frazier with myths to build up Rocky.

 

People who are critical of Marciano will always try to find an angle on his knockdowns like that they were old men of fighters under 200 lbs.

Lets look at the important facts though.

His two career knockdowns were against a heavyweight champion and a light heavyweight champion both of who were slick fighters known for their dangerous counters.

How many great champions through history have never been put on their but by sombody who was not themself a world champion level fighter?

How many great champions through history have never been put on their but by sombody who was not worthy to lace up their gloves for that matter?

 

Excellent points!

As far as 38 year old Walcott goes, I would take Quarry, Ellis, Chuvalo, Bonavena & Ali over him at that time in his career. When it comes to the punching power, I would go with Quarry, Chuvalo and Bonavena, over Walcott at that time also. Walcott was 10-7 going into his 1st bout with Rocky.

Also, there very few boxing historians and experts that would pick Rocky over Ali.

Like I said before, just put Frazier in Rocky's era and have him box all of Rocky's opponents, and if your being fair, Joe would have done just as good. The same thing can be said about several other formaer heavyweight champions, such as Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Louis and others.

No one really knows what would happen if those two met, we are all just giving our opinions, BUT it's fun trying to make our points.

 

To be fair though a lot of historians consider Walcott and Charles to be top 20 all time heavyweights and I don't think that anybody feels that way about Ellis Bonavena or even Quarry.

I must say also that I would have a hard time picking the fighters you listed over Walcott or Charles even at this stage of their careers.