Marciano vs. Norton

I hear that.... Trust me, Old farts and "Dempsey" nut-grabbers will crucify you by reducing Jack Dempsey in the ratings......... But I agree with you...
bbb

MR.BILL

 

Okay.... Shoot me if you must but, after reviewing BOTH "Ali-Spinks" fights of 1978, I will say that Leon Spinks was in his physical prime in 1978 despite only having 7 pro fights under his belt buckle.... What Leon Spinks lacked in skills and experience, he made up for it in **** and vinegar.... Leon Spinks will NEVER be remembered fondly in the history books of boxing; I know that... However, again, in 1978, Leon Spinks was in his prime at age 24 and dangerous....

People can say this and that about Spinks, but he did own heart & soul in 1978.... Christ, he did go 30 rds with Ali....... However, like many before and after him, poor Leon Spinks had a short-lived prime.....

Come 1979, Spinks was dusted by Gerrie Coetzee in ONE round... That was the beginning of a spiral downfall in boxing for Spinks.... Poor Leon Spinks never fully recovered or regained his early success.....

Point Being: "Even with only 7 or 8 pro fights, Leon Spinks was in serious shape and ripped at 197 to 202 pounds in the year of '78." The title ruined him..... After winning the title, Spinks stopped learning his trade in the gym and began to either level off or dip..... By 1982, it was obvious that Spinks was a pug with a name.....

MR.BILL

 

Yes, Marciano doesn't have as many fights or wins against rated opponents as Ali (or Louis), but he does have more wins against rated opponents and champions than Norton, Schmeling, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman, among others, and he also stacks up pretty well against Dempsey and Tunney, and it is important that he doesn't have a whole bunch of losses.

I don't rate him ahead of Ali and Louis BECAUSE they fought so many more highly rated fighters over a much longer period of time, but no one did better against the fighters they fought.

 

Some valid points there....:rasta

MR.BILL:bbb

 

Hindsight.

Foresight at the time was that Spinks wasn't very much. A draw against Scott Ledoux in his biggest bout was what he brought to the table against Ali. And nobody was holding Ledoux in all that high of esteem at the time and he was thought of as a regional fighter that would hang tough. If he'd have fought at heavy in the olympics, everyone thought Stevenson would've destroyed him with that right hand. A 78 spinks has his hands full with lots of fighters and he was fortunate to be on par with a stan ward type guy.

And this all heads back to the Ali deterioration factor. He went 15 rounds with Shavers and nobody on the planet thought Earnie could or would go 15 in that one. Then, the 15 round fiasco with Evangelista. I thought Evangelista won the fight because he was the only guy doing anything in there. Ali was ready to be taken for a few years by trhAt point and really hadn't fought the top heavies since the 76 Norton bout. Every matchup thereafter was supposed to be a soft touch for the guy.

It's kind of like evaluating Holyfield and looking only at that late timeframe and those efforts against Bean onward. Or those Ruiz matchups. Or even that initial Ruiz matchup and nobody was picking that guy to win. Hardly the same guy that fought Douglas. You could make a case for the toolset of a John Ruiz based upon those Holyfield bouts much the same as Ali--Spinks.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much it. No one can be faulted for having Marciano at nr. 3 as I see it, but a ranking that doesn't have Ali and Louis in the top 2 isn't really that good IMO.

 

Spinks was in his prime from a physical conditioning standpoint but was still an unskilled amateur in the ring ... don't go on the Ali bouts as Ali was pretty shot ... the Coetzee fight is a more realistic representation of where he was ...

 

Leon Spinks was poorly managed. He was thrown to the lions upon turning pro. No real manager would allow their boy to fight for a title against a solid champion after only 7 pro fights if he really cared about his investment. The fights with Ali in '78 was a huge risk that luckily paid off. Then 1979 came about and Leon Spinks was tossed to Gerrie Coetzee. In truth, Coetzee was untested and not really considered a threat in '79, but the sum ***** had a fierce right hand. Well, it didn't take Spinks long to eat that right hand like a whopper from Burger King. Coetzee iced Spinks in round one... From that point onward, Leon Spinks never fully got back on track... Again, by the early 1980s and with less than 20 friggin' pro fights to his name, Spinks was reduced to a journeyman / trailhorse type of fighter.... Only his name kept him outta the dumpster..... Yes, Ol' Spinks went to hell seemingly overnight, however, he was peaked and tuff and willing to kick some ass in 1978....

In 1978 Leon Spinks won the WBC / WBA titles from Muhammad Ali. However, upon signing for the rematch, Spinks was stripped of his WBC title and left with just the WBA belt for failing to go forward with a title fight against Kenny Norton..... I'm curious how well Spinks would've dealt with Norton in 1978..... My guess is Kenny Norton would've butchered him..... Norton was still healthy and in control of his bodily functions in 1978..... Norton was aging himself by then, but still capable...... Cheers...

MR,BILL:bbb

 

marciano catches norton with a bomb somewhere in the fight around 6-7.

 

Pretty much agreed ... however, it is a long running question if you take a title shot when you can get one as they are few and far between ... Leon's team knew they were dealing with a manchild who would most likely turn out a bust because of his complete lack of discipline and common sense ... few fighters have the focus or determination of a Marciano or Frazier ... Leon was completely devoid ...

Norton would have crushed him in a round or two, no doubt in my mind or Ali's as he basically publicly begged for the rematch, going as far as to state that ex-champs are entitled to immediate rematches, as her gave Liston, ignoring the fact that he did not give Foreman one ...

 

Your STATS are correct BUT like I stated before, if Tyson, Liston, Frazier, Holmes, Lewis and maybe even Bowe fought the same opponents as Rocky did at the same time in their careers, they too would have a Great record as well.

I know most of the Top boxing historians in the sport for over 30 years and most of them agree.

As far as Dempsey goes, in 1950, he was voted as the Greatest boxer ever, with Louis coming in 2nd, followed by Henry Armstrong. Still in the early 1960's most boxing historians had Dempsey at #1 BUT by the end of the decade, they turned to Louis. I have the ratings of 42 boxing historians and most of them rate Ali as #1 now.

I like Ali as #1 myself with Louis coming in at #2 BUT this is going by their overall career records. I also rate Rocky in my Top 10 too, BUT again this is going by his overall career record.

On a one on one, I still have Ali at #1 BUT Rocky would have trouble staying in my top 10 with guys like Liston, Holmes, Foreman, Lewis, Tyson & Frazier.

 

Well Im sure he would have said if Ali lost the nod to Young or the 2 Norton fights that most felt Ken won, Ali's rating would have been lower. I listened to Sugar speak he has a decent opinion but a lot of what he says is political, He took tyson out of the ratings for his fights past prime. I like the respect he gives Louis and Charles but why Drop Dempsey after having him at # 1...bottom line is its just an opinion...

 

LOL these guys are monday morning quarterbacks., all but one of of Marciano title opponents were # 1 contenders and came off of impressive wins..Charles with a 2 impressive KO's over Satterfield and Wallace...Moore with 2 wins over Valdez,KO over Baker and a Ko over Harold Johnson...Lastarza 53-3 and beat rvery man he faced except Marciano...and Walcott ( the wrong guy to fight for any style)..Foreman was carefully managed and had a real 70's like padded record and Nortons management almost screwed up putting him with 188 lb Jose Garcia, and Garcia was a no-one at the time....Flaws come out with fighter and Rocky's were few but carefully managed is the wrong term to use those men were all tests and look at the fighters they beat to become # 1 contenders

 

Henry,

This is a matter of opinion though

I think Marciano rates very well head to head. Not at the top, but certainly near the top. He had a very effective style that could cause pure hell for anyone who ever stepped in the ring with him.

 

SuzieQ49,

Don't laugh, because I'm not sure...... Q: Are you a man or woman?

Second question: You wouldn't happen to be overly favorable to Rocky Marciano because your are listed from Brockton, MA. would you??

MR.BILL