Marciano was better then Joe Frazier

I'll definitely get backlash for this thread so I'll try to present my case as best as I can, starting off with their overall skills. Rocky was popular in the time for having power in every punch with his "Suzie Q" (right overhand) being his strongest punch. Joe's strongest punch is famously his left hook, but that was really his only good punch. Stamina is important for being a successful swarmer and these two have some of the best cardio in boxing history as close as they are I think Marciano might have a slight edge just because he threw his whole body into almost every shot and in the 15th round against Charles he threw over 90 punches. In speed and agility easily goes to Joe but Marciano may have been better at cutting off the ring. When it comes to knocking opponents out quick Marciano also takes the edge averaging 4.9 rounds a fight to Frazier's 5.7 rounds. Defensively they are both very different making it hard to distinguish who had a better defense. Joe put his weight on his front foot and relied on a cross guard and head movement to avoid punches, but his head movement could be time (mostly because it wasn't reactive head movement). Marciano on the other hand built his defense around being small so as to take away from his opponents height advantage. Rocky had his weight on his back foot, he used leaning back and his right hand for defense while leaving his left hand out to counter (which is a strategy I have used to great success when I box). On defense it really could go either way just depending on who you're fighting.

Now time to talk about resume...
Joe's biggest names that would trouble Marciano are Ali and Foreman. He didn't do so well against Foreman but he did great against Ali. Marciano would lose to Foreman just like Frazier but I think Rocky could have beaten Ali in a first fight similarly to Frazier and definitely would win the rematch given how well Marciano performed in rematches. Ali himself said that if anyone could have beaten him it would have been Marciano. Now let's look at Marciano's lineup. Walcott and Charles would give Joe a good run but I don't see Joe losing to them, but Moore could give Joe problems (Louis isn't worth mentioning because he was a shell of himself when he fought Rocky). I see Moore being able to time Joe's head movement and land some clean shots and then use his defensive prowess to avoid Frazier's left hook.

Overall I see Marciano a being better than Frazier but I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

I disagree.
We're definitely entitled to our own opinions

 

Love them both.

Joe's biggest arguments are that he is a bit bigger, proven against bigger guys, and has the single biggest win (obviously!)

Rocky's arguments are more two-fisted power. On paper, he has a better chin, with fewer knockdowns and no knockdowns to Mike Bruce and Bonevena level guys, although that is very debatable, as again, Frazier fought a different sized heavy. Both had insane stamina, maybe The Rock a hair better, and for the hundreth time, I will site round 15 of the first Charles fight...94 mostly power punches in round 15!


Marciano's consensus top ten, vote tallies included...
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/rocky-marciano-top-ten-wins-name-em.736403/
Walcott 1 4
Moore 4
Charles II 4
La Starza II 4
Louis 4
Rex Layne 4
Charles 1 3
Walcott II 3
Matthews 3
Cockell 3


Frazier's consensus top-ten wins, vote tallies included:
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/joe-frazier-top-ten.732000/
Ali 6
Ellis 1 6
Quarry 1 6
Bonavena 2 6
Quarry 2 6
Bonavena 1 6
Chuvalo 6
Bugner 6
Mathis 6
Machen 4

 

Talking about best punch and this and that skill is all relative to the size of the fighter. Sugar Ray Leonard was a better fighter than probably all the greatest heavyweights but I guarantee hes not beating them. They have weight divisions for a reason and they created a new one after Marciano because the fighters got so big that a top 195 pound fighter couldn’t compete with a top 215 225 pounder. Prime to prime Frazier had almost 20 pounds on Marciano was taller with a much longer reach. He was faster and much harder to cut. For toughness conditioning and heart Marciano wasn’t taking that from Frazier who was at least his equal there. So you put that together and this would be a very one sided fight. If Marciano could get inside he could have some early success when Frazier was most vulnerable. Eventually Frazier would tear Rocky up. It probably wouldn’t go past 5 rounds.

 

FOTC Frazier vs the best version of Marciano--I'd go with "Smokin Joe" all day, every day, and twice on Sunday LOL!!

 

Love them both have to go with Joe here.

 

Frazier has a better resume and fought bigger punchers.

I do agree Rocky was more talented due to having more two fisted power.

Love them both. Both ATG's

 

Head to head it tough. Marciano may beat Joe if he can catch him clean with that right. He certainly had a bigger punch.

I don't think Rocky could do what Frazier did with Ali. Beating and running him to the wire a couple of times. Marciano was a little slower than Joe. I dont see Marciano's skin holding up against Ali slashing punches. Especially his jab. He would be bloody mask by the mid rounds. Even Joe Bugner would have been a problem for Rocky.

Marciano could be ranked as greater than Joe but I don't know that he was better. Frazier was a little sharper and just as tough.

 

I think Marciano's technique and skills are so much underrated. The more I watch his fights, the more I realize how unorthodox and at the same time skilled he was. He had great defensive footwork. Fighting out of the crouch, leaning on his back foot to avoid jabs.
It was difficult to hit Marciano clean on the chin. And even if you hit him, he had a granite chin.

He also had more diversified attacking techniques than Frazier. Look at this video where it is mentioned that he used something between a cross and an uppercut to win the fight against Moore. In my opinion, he was more adaptive than Frazier.

This content is protected

 

Just for arguments sake let's stir the pot.. Fraziers record against ATGs is 1-4.. His one win being one he'd probably never have had if he'd fought Ali pre-exile... Joe's other best wins are guys like Jerry Quarry, and Jimmy Ellis, whom nobody considers ATG HWs.. & he barely pulled out a decision to Bonavena who knocked him down twice. Frazier also outweighed a lot of his opposition.. his prime weight was around 205 - 210lbs.. Ellis, Quarry, Foster, Jones, Machen etc were sub 200lb.. some were even under 190lb..

 

You make some valid points, but you also concede they're arguably even in various stats (defense, stamina, etc). You also admit Rocky was only marginally better in terms of finishing opponents/power (4.9 rounds to 5.7), and think he had better stamina due to being more aggressive and putting more weight behind every shot. You then concede Frazier had better speed and agility.

Tallying things up, it's 2-2-2 with them being roughly even when comparing stats/fighting ability. You could give Rocky the edge due to having a wider punch selection (threw uppercuts with both hands, overhand rights, etc) and potentially having the better chin; although the tallying would still be close if you also give Frazier an edge in body punching and head movement. Rocky would only be a smidgen better.

As for resume, both cleared out their divisions at their best. Frazier had the better signature win over Ali, while Rocky has quantity on his side with more ATGs to name (Moore, Charles, etc). It's close, but you could argue Rocky should rate higher due to never losing while Frazier went 1-4 against the 2 most elite opponents he faced (although Frazier did collect some quality scalps over guys like Quarry, Bugner, Ellis, etc).

So overall, I'd agree Rocky was a tad better overall in terms of h2h ability and resume, but Frazier does have a few things clearly in his favor.

 

no. he wasn't.

not by a huge amount and both were kinda limited, but frazier was better.

just my opinion but i am getting old and i've watched a lot of boxing.

 

Good eye, he was. Frazier's a little cautious.

 

Yeah by achievements he kinda has to be. Undefeated champion who beat several past it but nevertheless big names. Frazier has the better resume h2h tho

 

Joe by a good ways. Marciano has "names" on his resume who were largely names only by the time he fought them or who are names only because of the Cult of Marciano. Seriously, guys like Layne and Lastarza were well below Buster Mathis level without the glow cast by the Saint Rocky.