Not the most objective video of all time but it serves its purpose for this discussion: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R78hdxpRfws[/ame] 1:35 onwards.
Exactly. Considering that Louis WAS at least somewhat vulnerable to head shots (also, he was KO'd early enough in his career and his opponents all KNEW about it) , and that he fought in the HEAVYWEIGHT division where getting iced with one or a few punches in more of a risk than in lower divisions, there's absolutely no way he could have survived so many fights without near-great or great defensive boxing techniques. However great his offensive game (which was often more slow and methodical than explosive and aggressive) it would be impossible to 'luck' his way past a decade of hungry heavyweight contenders.
All basically true A, but McCallum's defensive talent and radar were still a few notches above Joe imo. I'd compare Joe more so to someone like the Explosive Thin Man for defensive strengths and drawbacks.He's certainly the most fundamentally strong of the great heavies here, most are pretty poor in this respect...even a noted pure boxer Larry Holmes who's style would have benefited quite a bit by being more schooled defensively.
C'mon the man was great enough we don't need to start with this kind of thing to pump him up even more.Too many people need to jack up every attribute of their favoured all-timers around here. Attributing him great or near-great defensive boxing instincts is giving him a level of ability he never came close to showing in the ring.He was fundamentally sound, competent and generally more than good enough to prevail against most other heavyweights considering the other talents he had that WERE genuinely overwhelming and great.
Like you said, not the most objective video. I'm not a big fan of that one, mainly because it's very easy to manipulate footage and promote a misconception. I don't think Louis was particularly skilled at defending himself. About average really as far as heavyweights go, but this isn't to say he had no alternatives; well placed jabs warded off most incoming assaults while they were still just a thought in his attacker's head. Generally that is the main subconscious role of the jab. Secondarily it wears an opponent down and opens up softer targets. This is how Louis operated. A groggy opponent after six rounds with Louis' jab up his nose probably had very little energy (and reflexes) left to spend on anything other than giving the illusion he was still in the fight. Problem was, early in the fight Louis could be a danger too, because if he sensed a weak opponent or even just a hole in his armour, he'd go for it there and then, and he had a fully stocked arsenal behind him.
As far as HEAVYWEIGHTS go Louis had a pretty damn good defense, a 7 or 8. You could really only include some specialists and LHWs coming up to be better. A prime Ali, Walcott, Holmes, Charles, Tunney, Corbett, Johnson, etc. Like Lora's saying he's about as good as you can expect for a standup classic boxer. Especially one so offensively minded. Interesting tidbit about Holmes. I've always thought he'd have been quite interesting to watch if schooled in the Mayweather style.
True but we also cannot ignore what goes on in the video. Obviously Louis had the defensive moves (he was taught by some of the best after all in Jack Blackburn and Holman Williams early on) but he did not necessarily have the ability to put them to consistent use. I'd say that Arguello got hit a bit more than Louis unnecessarily (although in fairness he was competing against faster opposition) while McCallum was a step above him. Mendoza might tell you otherwise but against Godoy the first time, Louis was barely hit solidly despite the fight being fought mainly on the inside. It was one of his worst offensive performances but he was doing all the clean punching to any objective viewer.
:good Good post, my newly revised top 10 p4p list of fighters I`ve seen good or reasonable footage of is nothing like yours no doubt but here it is anyway. 1. Sugar Ray Robinson 2. Henry Armstrong 3. Willie Pep 4. Muhammad Ali 5. Ezzard Charles 6. Roberto Duran 7. Sugar Ray Leonard 8. Joe Louis 9. Pernell Whitaker 10. Julio Cesar Chavez
I'm awed by the fight-game knowledge in this forum. SRR has to be the closest thing to the GOAT..everything considered..As mentioned by many others before..there were cats who did special things better than him..but when put together..The Sugarman was..and still..the most complete fighter we have evr seen..And of course..it helps a lot that the man was great to watch..At his best,he was awsome. Which makes me weep for a guy like Roy Jones..with all those abilities..he should have been up there on talent alone.Too bad.
GOAT offense, perhaps? I wouldn't call his defense bad. But it wasn't very good, maybe just good. I agree with the spirit of what MagnaNaskki said. Durability can also be a question mark as well.
To hell with it: Give frank bruno an elite level conditioning coach and you have your goat right there.