Mike Tyson vs Joe Frazier

It is silly to talk about Frazier having to deal with Tyson's jab. He's dealt with a far superior jab from Muhammad Ali (yes, I'm aware that Tyson's has more power but that is relevant ONLY if it lands) and so he can certainly handle Tyson's. Especially when you consider that Tyson never used the jab CONSISTENTLY. Tyson sporadically used the jab in the Tucker fight but the purpose was to use the jab to get inside. I don't recall Tyson CONSISTENTLY using the jab in a CONVENTIONAL MANNER like the way Larry Holmes would use it. Unless Tyson is throwing 50 jabs a round (this is NOT his style), I see Joe Frazier having an EASY time dealing with the sporadic jabs Mike throws. This fight will be inclose, no room for jabs.

I also laugh at people suggesting that 1971 Joe Frazier would be "smart" and keep away from Tyson in the early rounds. That is NOT his style either. In the words of Captain Hook, "NEEEVVVVEEERRR!"

Tyson has never had CONSISTENT strategy. He just doesn't know the meaning of the word consistent and that is why he'd lose to other ATGs that he has the natural talent to beat. Too bad.

In this case, as I said before, I pick Tyson to win before round 6.

 

Tyson, by mid-round stoppage. Frazier is too slow a starter and Mike would pounce on this fact. Frazier could possibly weather the storm for a while, however it's only a matter of time before 'Iron Mike' gets to him.

 

I think you need to look at some of the numbers here. Against Ali in the FOTC Frazier averaged a slip and duck rate of 23 punched per round. Against Bonecrusher Smith Tyson only averaged 12 punches slipped and ducked per round.

I think Frazier was at least the equal of Tyson in his ability to slip punches. Where he got hit more it had a lot to do with the people he was fighting.

 

Take into account though, that Ali averaged over 60 punches a round whereas Bonecrusher Smith averaged over 60 clinches a round.

 

No, but even more important, we're talking about slipping against the lightning fast punches of Muhammad Ali versus the punches of Bonecrusher Smith...:nut

 

It's threads like this that really tell me how over-rated Tyson really is.
(and how under-rated Frazier is.)

Often repeated here is "Tyson's style is just wrong for Frazier, he'll get Joe early" ...... "Frazier was a slow starter and could be stopped early"

Truth is, I strongly doubt Tyson's style to be effective against a short pure pressure fighter like Frazier. The only guy Tyson fought of remotely that style was Buster Mathis Jr., and Tyson was pushed back and made to miss by Buster, crowded and confused.
Now of course, people are gonna object to that example because Tyson was fresh out of jail and inactivity, but I say, well, it's only Buster Mathis Jr., a mediocre fighter, so the style itself is relevant.
In his very next fight Tyson swarmed all over 6-3 240 pound upright Frank Bruno in his "Tyson style".

Tyson stood too square-footed on the inside, had poor balance to deal with a bull-like Frazier, and was just not a natural fighter on a par with Frazier. Seriously, I cannot fathom how Tyson beats Frazier.

Tyson was a faster starter than Frazier but against fighters who fought back he could be caught early too. I mean, guys who offered token resistance like Tucker and Bruno, on the back foot, had Tyson nailed.
And Frazier's repuatation as a "slow starter" is undeserved. Most the fighters he fought were good boxers and very cautious in the first round and Frazier sensibly stalked.
As Duodenum points out, against a mediocrity like Dave Zigiwicz, Frazier was blazing at the opening bell. Fighters who could whack a bit like Ramos were responded to with ferocious retaliation within the first round, and even Jerry Quarry - who was probably better than anyone Tyson ever beat - was pushed back from his attempt at an early surprise attack. Bob Foster was mashed by Frazier in 2 rounds.
It was mostly Frazier's intense output in the mid-to-late rounds that made him look slow in the early going. Either way, Tyson cannot beat a prime Frazier by early round KO. Score a knockdown, maybe, but KO, no way.

Tyson's not big enough to keep Frazier off him, like Foreman could. Tyson and Frazier have roughly the same reach. Both guys are gonna land, and Frazier's gonna land more. When Frazier gets knocked down he gets up and fights back harder, when Tyson starts getting hurt he's nowhere near as reliable. Plus he's gonna find the close-range fighting too difficult, with Frazier's head in his chest. Tyson would be looking to the referee for help after a round or two of frustration.

Tyson beating Frazier is la-la-land fantasy that perpetuates due to the ongoing mistake that Tyson was once "invincible" or close to it.

Compare the two fighters at any stage in their careers, Frazier was always fighting better opposition, kicking butt or when get his butt kicked it was against great opposition and he never quit or got counted out.

Tyson's the lesser fighter. And there is nothing to suggest Tyson could deal with Frazier's style better than Frazier could deal with Tyson. That's just ridiculous. Tyson beat inferior fighters who's styles were NOTHING like Frazier's, and there is some evidence to suggest his style isn't as effective against anything resembling Frazier's style.
On the other hand, Frazier never beat a fighter who fought like Tyson, but he fought (and beat) greater fighters and he was never bothered by fighters who came to rumble in the trenches. Even Foreman could not keep him down. Frazier could grit out anything Tyson throws at him in the first couple of rounds and make his own deadly presesnce apparent. If Tyson still wants to know after 3 or 4 rounds, he's entering a whole world of pain, and I dont see him getting to the 10th.

Frazier beats Tyson up BADLY.

 

So you deduce that Joe would slip Tysons punches? :yikes Swarmer will slip punches of counter-puncher/slugger? :nut We saw how Joe slip those punches from slugger Foreman :yep So I can deduce that it is easier to slip Ali`s punches than Foreman ones.

 

In the clash of raging bulls Frazier was almost crashed by Bonavena. Tyson NEVER was crashed by attacking bulls. So in such clash a winner will be a more physically strongest boxer with more versatile attack with more strong chin with more strong punch. Its all about Tyson.

 

Tyson never fought a strong bull-like fighter. He was pushed back by the weak fat-man Buster Mathis Jr.
His stance is all wrong. Look at his square-on footwork. Tyson is mediocre on the inside.

There's no way he beats Frazier.

Frazier could win VERY TOUGH FIGHTS, for example against Bonavena, Quarry and Ali.
Tyson was beaten up by the first fighter who really laid it on him.

 

You make some very good points Sonny, and I agree with most of them. I will say however, try not to judge Tyson by his performance in the Douglas fight. This was not a usual Tyson at his best.

That's coming from a guy who's not even a fan of him either...

 

I think it most likely that Tyson hurts Frazier in the first round or two, perhaps drops him once or twice.
But I also think it most likely that Frazier gets up and hurts Tyson almost immediately.

The general thinking on this thread is so biased towards what Tyson's gonna do to Frazier that there seems to be a complete blank over what Frazier is gonna do back to Tyson.

The unrealistic optimism on this thread is for Tyson, IMO. The idea that he's gonna just take Frazier's best shots and cope with the trauma of Frazier's will-to-win in his face whatever he throws at Frazier. This is unrealistic.

Tyson is capable of shocking and shaking Frazier, of course, and it is LIKELY, but it would not spell the end for Frazier, Smokin Joe was too tough. So even if he's caught he'd get up and fight back, driving hooks into Tyson's body and head, driving his head into Tyson's chest, using his inside stance to crowd Tyson - and the onus seems to be on Tyson's supporters to prove Tyson would deal well with what Frazier could do back to him.

Foreman beat Frazier by shoving him back with his immense strength and teeing off with long uppercuts. He also scored with a long ramrod jab. Foreman had long arms and long looping punches, he fought tall. His strengths were nothing that Tyson could repliacte. And if it only proves that Frazier could suffer knockdowns it also shows Frazier could get back up and throw punches.
Against Tyson, Frazier would have his opponent in range and he'd have an opponent that was inferior as an inside fighter and an opponent that could not take it as well as he could dish it out.

Frazier's just too good as a fighter. He'd beat the crap out of Tyson.

 

Tyson fought against Buster Mathis NEVER was prime. We compare prime for prime. While prime Frazier took some bad beating from mediocre boxer but good athlete Bonavena. Tyson punch on the next level as Bonavena did. So Frazier going to Mike to die because they both would go to zone where they both can landed and Mike has more solid chin, more power in his shot, significantly more variative attacks and more physical raw power.

 

Actually, Frazier was in his 12th pro fight when he fought Bonavena in 1966 and got shook up. Bonavena was a big step up. Why not use the Bonavena rematch, where Frazier beat his awkward opponent over 15 rounds and never got seriously hurt or decked ?
In fact, Frazier was bothered mostly by Bonavena's crude awkwardness and not by his aggression, so it is meaningless to say Tyson was better boxer.

Tyson was not in his prime against Buster Mathis Jr but that's the only fighter who even slightly fought short and crowded Tyson, so the example is valid. Also, Tyson was still good, and Mathis Jr. was not 5% of the fighter Frazier was, so unless Tyson was less than 4% of his prime then I think it should be noted.
But we can forget that.

Frazier was a better fighter than Tyson, with a lot more TOUGHNESS, that's why he's beat the **** out of Tyson.

Tyson could not take it. You can talk up his chin and his power and his skills all you like, fact is Tyson got his assed kicked by "lesser" fighters.

People hate to face reality on Tyson. He got busted up, beaten timid, and quit on more than one occassion. Sure, he had great skills and strengths to wipe out some very good fighters but against someone as tough and as mean and great as Frazier, Tyson would get beaten up badly.