Mikkel Kessler vs James Toney.

Who do I pick against him? All time? There's not a single great MW I wouldn't favor over him, especially among the top out-boxers.

He was a limited fighter, plain and simple, as good as he was at his game against certain styles. His lack of footwork and ability to press a fight would be his downfall against certain styles, and he'd get beat up on the inside against someone like Dick Tiger, who no fighter is beating by standing in front of and trading.

 

toney wide ud or late tko

 

Except cement shoed Toney.:good

On a serious note, how is Kessler not classified as an out-fighter? That's basically all he is really. I'm not out-right picking him either, I just said it wouldn't be easy for an in-fighter who can't press for **** to beat an out-boxer with a very solid jab and spacing.

 

And by the way, no I'm not only considering Toney at the higher weights. In fact I rarely watch that fat, slow, boring ass version. When rating Toney I'm usually speaking of a MW-SMW version.

The best version from the first McCallum fight would've beaten Kessler. Otherwise, not so sure.

 

So you pick everyone over him, and can't see him getting an upset over anybody...

I thought that with your seeming attention to detail, in your crtique of Toney you might have seen some of the things that make him great also...evidently you only see what you want.

 

Well there you go, on those grounds you describe any fighter youwanted as a 'stylistic nightmare' for Toney, couldn't you?

I think youre really overthinking this whole 'styles' thing as well- sometimes fights are decided by the stylistic matchup of the fighters, all else being equal - but most of the most, nay, nearly all of the time, one fighter is just better than the other.

 

I see the things that make him a very good fighter, his inside skills. He was a good mid-range fighter at one point as well, but never a top notch out-fighter and it showed. His footwork was abysmal, always has been, even in his prime. That's the key factor here.

Anyways, give me a few great MW's you think he'd beat. Guys like Monzon, Hagler, Hopkins, Jones(obviously), etc would've all beaten him handily.

He'd have had more success with the pressure fighters, as they'd play right into his hands, but the likes of Tiger, Fullmer, etc would just out-muscle him and push him around.

Hell, I could see a guy like Duran(of the Hagler fight) beating Toney.

You assume I only pay attention to every other fighter but have some agenda out on Toney? No, it's just that I'm sick of the absurd overrating of such a limited fighter. Top notch at his style, but he'd be beaten by MANY fighters throughout history.

 

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Now you are sidestepping and contradicting yourself to rationalize your premise. Kessler does NOT have the style to beat highly skilled technicians.

 

Ooooohh man, ya got me. I made a very slight change in my opinion, you've broken down my entire argument....

Now that we're past that, let's proceed. Kessler would get beaten by most truly skilled boxers and versatile fighters, Toney simply was not one. The only thing that is keeping me from picking Kessler is the fact that he quite simply hasn't proven himself yet, and he himself is a pretty basic, but very effective, fighter.

The same can be said of Toney. They're limited in two different ways. It's basically a toss-up, slight edge going to Toney because he's more proven. And I said the Toney of the McCallum fight would've beaten him anyway.

You guys claim a guy like Kessler is incapable of beating him yet refuse to acknowledge that the likes of Dave Tiberi(robbed) and Drake Thadzi beat him.

This argument is getting dull as hell and I'm about to call it a night. My brain is fried from this bull****.

 

exactly, i mean look at toney now hes and overweight slob boxing at heavyweight, three classes above the norm and still kicking it with them, even though the heavyweight division is horrible, toneys a ****ing awsome boxer to be able to kick it with them

 

His style is more suited to fighting at higher weights than most MW's. That's what he has going for him. It doesn't mean he'd beat the MW's that are incapable of fighting up to HW. Same thing with people who say he has the best chin of all time because he's a MW who fought up to HW and has taken HW's best shots. If that's the case why was he dropped and wobbled badly by Reggie Johnson at MW?

 

While I can recognize a minimal amount of truth in your sentiments toward the facts, I have to disagree with regard to the totality of your statements. ...of course I wouldn't pick him over Hagler at MW though, but I wouldn't pick ANYBODY over Hagler at MW.

...Toney didn't belong in the lighter weights, we've all been through it before...about him being a 215 HS Football player and so on...He hasn't boxed at MW in 15 years. He's only been beat by Peter in the HWs. Toney is a threat in any division.

WLAD KLIT got knocked down 3 times in 12 rounds with Sam Peter, Toney was knocked down briefly (due only to footwork,...however I believe it's been an exrememly minimal issue throughout his career) 1 time in 24 rounds...another proof of his legitimacy as a HW.

 

What...the...****?! Isn't every fighter who's ever competed 'limited' in some way?

Sweat Pea I think you've dug a hole for yourself and can't get out, just give in and call it a night, we're all wrong sometimes :good

 

He may be more natural at higher weights, and he fits them a lot better than most that started off as light as he did, but he was unquestionably the better fighter at MW and SMW, when he wasn't weight-drained out the ass anyway.

Very good fighter, but limited. Many fighters are, I just dislike the fact that he gets the benefit of the doubt in every matchup he's at a stylistic disadvantage in just because he's James Toney and he had a cute shoulder roll that people liked to marvel at.

Anyways, I'm way beyond the point of being able to come up with a coherent argument without prejudice getting in the way. I'd rather not debate like this, I'm fried and tired. We'll do this some other time.

 

when you go up in weight your chin gets better, look at hearns