Most overrated old-timer?

Re: Tunney fight. It's amazing they got Jack in the ring in the first place. It also has to be noted that the Pennsylvania Commission had to send Dempsey a 'plea' to fight Wills or Tunney as a 'patriotic duty'. They sent him a wire that said:


"Look Mallard, fight someone decent or give others a chance, you're taking the **** out of the greatest prize in sport...even Floyd Patterson didn't shirk decent challengers like you and he hasn't even been born yet".*





* Printed verbatim. I **** you not.

 

No. I was saying that Fripo gave Dempsey a scare just like Galento gave Louis a scare. I was not comparing Firpo to the best fighters Louis meet in title matches.

If the judges do a fair job, Louis likely looses to Godoy and Walcott. The 20 title defenses is very impressive for Louis, but some of them were favorible calls for Louis, and others were vs bum of the month type of contenders.

Not so. Buddy Bear had Louis pinned on the ropes, and knocked Louis clean out of the ring with a punch. The thing is, Louis' weight was on the ropes. The punch made Louis body do a back flip over the ropes, and somehow Louis ended up landing on his feet! Dempsey was pushed out of the ring, and landed on a table with typewriters.

Prior to being champion, Louis had a very close call vs Bob Pastor and Al Waiter. I have the write up on the Pastor fight if you want to read it.

 

Dempsey isn't beating Holmes, Holyfield, Frazier, Foreman Lewis, Louis, Liston, Tyson or Klitschko. Those men came up in eras that were more advanced athletically than anything Dempsey was used to fighting in. His fighting style which utilized a lot of footwork and punching technique combined was a big thing for a man of his era, but a few decades later, it was old news. His style would not be difficult for most modern heavyweight to figure out, and in fact he'd likely be in culture shock fighting most future all time greats.

I'll be the first to admit that making arguments based on viewing boxrec, is a very shallow way to assess fighters, but I can't ignore the fact that Dempsey's record requires some reviewing. A lot of fight fans and historians credit Dempsey as having more first round KO's than any other heavyweight, but this is deceiving. If we look at the names and records of the men he knocked out in 1 round, many of them have more losses than wins, and most have no wins at all!!! In fact, at one point he Ko'd like 5 guys in a row who all had records of some 0-0-0. This is not a great legacy builder if looked at from the right angles. I also don't buy this argument that those guys probably had more fights that weren't recorded due to the documenting techniques of the old era. If they had more fights that were worth mentioning, then I'm sure they'd be listed.

 

The reply was directed to the 0-2 record vs Tunney. Tunney would be a nightmare in the ring for Joe Louis as well.

I never said or implied that the Firpo knockdown was a flash type of knock down. Only it was a true chin checker of a shot, and it was followed up by Firpo shoving Dempsey out of the ring. Both of the actions can be seen on film.

While Dempsey might have been stunned by Brennan, Carpentier, and Sharkey, he did not go down as often as Louis did vs class opponents, nor was he ever badly behind on the cards as Louis was in a few of his fights before pulling out a come from behind KO.

I think Miske was better than Pastor. Most would agree. Brennan had a punchers chance that Conn and Pastor did not.

As for how Demspey would do vs Chalres, Dempsey did not lose his power with age. If Charles stood in front of Dempsey like he did vs Louis, he might have been knocked out.

As for Donnavan, he was Joe Louis personal ref. Louis management had an in with two powerful promoters, and Donnavan was the ref for at least 15 of Louis matches. Unfortunely, Donnavan was also a judge in the matches. Donnavan, who had the best seat in the house somehow only gave 1 round out of 15 to Tommy Farr, and 4 rounds of 15 to Godoy. I’m sorry, but I own those fights and Donnavan’s integrity or ability as a judge must be in question. It is a little know fact that Jersey Joe Walcott insisted that Donnavan could not be the ref for his fight with Louis, and the man who replaced him was the lone man who gave Walcott the first fight on points.

My intention was not to make this a Louis or Demspey thread, rather it was to point out many great fighters had struggled too, and by no means was Dempsey an over rated old timer.

 

He was also KO'd in three by Noel Coward and had his jaw broken by Virginia Woolf. :hey

 

Yes but Noel had loaded gloves.

 

The irony is that you are criticising them for doing exactly what you do.

Making big world class but limited fighters favourite over great but small fighters. Given your own views you should entirley identify with this pick.

Incidentaly the people who had seen Dempsey were under no illusion as to what would happen. Fulton was also seen as an uncrowned champion by some before Jack Dempsey beat him.

 

Stuff and nonsense.

Dempsey did virtualy everything Tyson did better.

Name one thing that Tyson did better.