Thanks for the heads up on the Youtube vid, Unforgiven. By the replies it sounds like a must have. I shall watch and afterward save it to my hardrive when I have access to a computer with internet access.
You must remember though,that this was Ali's first fight after a 3 1/2 year lay off. To accurately access how good he finally got after he came back,the SECOND Quarry fight would be a far more accurate pointer.
That's true. He wasn't as good. But he was still far different from the other heavyweights. His hand speed and his movement was still remarkable compared to even the best of the ranked heavyweights.
Very true. And the second fight shows Ali at his best in several aspects. He wasn't quite as athletic as five, six years earlier, but his technique and rings generalship is absolute top notch here. Perhaps my favourite Ali perfomance.
Well, I don't see any evidence on film for that. Ali didn't look like he was lacking sharpness or fading late. In fact, he dazzled Frazier with a fantastic display of crisp, accurate punching in the early rounds until Frazier started to find his rhythm. Dundee has always dismissed claims that Ali's training was somehow sub-standard or pear-shaped for FOTC.
Well, try fight 2 or 3. There's all the evidence you need of Ali beating Frazier right there. And don't come with the whole "but Frazier was never the same after FOTC/Foreman etc". He was younger for all their fights, never suffered a long lay-off, lost 2 out of 3, and still you can't see a prime Ali beating him? It's pretty clear from your input about Duran that you're not the sharpest knife in the cupboard and this confirms it.
I go along with this. Frazier was still a formidable fighter for parts 2 and 3 of their trilogy. In 1974 and '75 he'd still have beaten anyone around then except for Ali and Foreman. It's more than obvious that a 1967 Ali would have beaten a 1971 Frazier. Would still have been competitive though.
This version is not only the best HW ever but 2nd only to Robinson in p4p terms.... Ive never seen a man that size move so fluid, his technique was absolute top notch from very early on too, he never went to the body with any real force in any fight from my memory & perfected a good old solid clinch rather than master infighting but he was so good at what he did best that these things never came back to haunt him before the lay-off & he was a master at sticking to his strengths & avoiding his weaknesses. Brilliant fighter, a one off that will never come again in this lifetime.
The footspeed, reflexes & stamina were the main things that suffered the most during the lay-off.... & those things were also the main reasons that Frazier beat Ali... you should probably think about watching a few full Ali fights from 64-67 before typing I would think.
I hear you, but I wouldn't be so sure about that. There was a time when I thought I would never pick anyone over Joe Louis at Heavyweight...and then along came Mr. Muhammad Ali.
Yeah the 67 version of Ali was noticeably faster and more agile than the later version but I don't believe the '67 Ali had the same snap or power on his jab that the later, heavier version did. With that said, I don't believe the younger version, while extraordinarily agile for a HW, would be able to keep Frazier off of him because Frazier was just too good at cutting the ring off and that little pitty pat jab of the '67 Ali wouldn't be enough in a 15 round fight. Also, I don't think that the '67 Ali stays on his feet after getting potshoted for half of round 15 in the first fight( Check the fight out again and you tell me). The key for me when I compare the two version of Ali is the jab... pre-exile Ali's jab was lighting quick but was more defensive than anything, '70 Ali's jab was a PUNCH(like Larry Holmes' jab) Big difference...:think
Ali weighed 215 in FOTC and 212 against Folley. Now, which do you affected his jab the most? Those extra 3 pounds or 3,5 years of inactivity? The correct answer is that Ali had gained nothing before FOTC. Those six months of his comeback was only used to regain as much as possible of what he had lost.
Do you agree that his jab had evolved from an amateurish point winner to an actual punch to compensate for his diminished agility... post exile? If so then you've proven my point. I wasn't trying to argue the weight issue specifically but mainly the difference in fighting style between '67 Ali and '70 Ali. '67 Ali gets beaten handily by Frazier.
Not so sure about that, please check out my post on this above...please tell me how '67 Ali keeps Frazier off of him for 15 rounds with a pitty pat jab. Look at the film before dismissing the argument.