Muhammad Ali Punches

Any difference in Ali's power pre and post exile?

 

I think I rate his chin realistically - I would still call it great but there were those fights that were stopped - with a hint that Chuvalo might’ve hit the deck if they had gone on.

It would be wrong imo to say he was never hurt or stunned in multiple fights.

Still, he took shots in there against Frazier and Foreman that I think would’ve put a lot of other fighters down - true Frazier and Foreman were relatively green - but Chuvalo was never a great boxer anyway - it seemed everyone got to at least land some of the best shots on him, lol.

Unlucky for Chuvalo that it was one of Foreman’s best performances imo, even though Foreman was was very young and relatively inexperienced.

Even Ali in their first match and more particularly in their rematch appeared to get Chuvalo’s attention more than a few times - in the rematch, a more flat footed and likely harder punching Ali than he was in their first fight - for the rematch Ali only weighted 1 1/2 lbs more than their first fight but being less mobile allowed for better leverage for punching.

 

First of all, I believe Bonavena did floor Chuvalo, but the referee blew the call.

The HW whose chin I always felt got short shrift was the never floored Henry Clark. Zora Folley (decked Bonavena for the first time in Ringo's career and nearly floored him a second time during their first bout), Eddie Machen (put down big Nino Valdez for the count with a right to the body, and nearly put down Frazier in the ninth for what would probably be ruled a KD today), Leotis Martin (a win for Clark), Liston (on YouYube, Clark's bout immediately following Leotis), Jeff "Candy Slim" Merritt 2X (the only one to ever flat out put Ernie Terrell down and out, in the opening round at that, ending Terrell's career), Jack O'Halloran 2X (going 1-1 via decisions: Foreman rated O'Halloran among the top five punchers George faced), Ken Norton (who won in nine by swelling Clark's eyes shut in preserved television footage), Mac Foster, Tiger Williams, Shavers 2X, and Bernardo Mercado to conclude his career.

Clark was only stopped by Liston, Norton and in Shavers II. After retirement, he rated Shavers as the hardest puncher he faced.

Folley
Machen
Leotis (nearly killed Liston)
Sonny Liston
Candy Slim 2X
Giant O'Halloran 2X
Norton
Mac Foster
Tiger Williams
Shavers 2X
Mercado

That's 11 highly skilled and/or power punchers in 15 bouts who failed to put Clark down. Liston needed seven rounds and Norton needed nine to end it. Only Shavers ever blew him out on the Ali-Norton III undercard at Yankee Stadium.

Henry Clark was the first HW contender to idolize Ali, but his was not a particularly elusive chin, nor did he share Ali's mobility. Given who he always kept his feet against, I believe his chin clearly was superior to Chuvalo's.

 

I don't see pre exile Ali stopping Bonavena, Frazier or Foreman, nor would any of those three have been competitive on the cards. (Ali was signed to defend against Bonavena in Tokyo on May 24, 1967.) Foreman rated Ali the fifth hardest puncher he ever faced.

Both Chuvalo and Patterson considered pre exile Ali to be much superior to the post exile version, but pre exile Ali didn't punch as much, since punching tended to wear him down at that stage of his career. So he used his legs to spare his arms. Who did Ali take out in his first career that he would have failed to take out from 1970 to 1977? On the other hand, I don't see pre exile Ali stopping the likes of Lyle, Foreman, Frazier, or Wepner the way he boxed Chuck in 1975 (without winning on cuts - in his second career I believe he only stopped Patterson in that way).

Pre exile Ali stops Evangelista, Leon and probably Shavers, possibly Norton, but I think he'd have settled for a lopsided decision over Kenny by constantly dancing, rendering Norton unable to pull the trigger, a Championship Distance version of the first several rounds of their middle bout in September 1973.

 

Look he was a hard enough puncher that no one walked through him .. at times he seemed to be a bit of an arm puncher .. even his terrific jab seemed to sting more than snap like a Holmes and certainly didn't punish like a Liston or Foreman .. however he was an accumulation puncher , wearing a man down even though he was capable of landing the well timed right (Lyle) or hook (Bonavena) ... b plus as a heavyweight as a whole but a b- among heavyweight champions ...

 

Great run down on Henry Clark. While I wasn’t aware of him ever being floored I couldn’t have said with 100% conviction that he was never put down.

Imo, that was one of Shavers’ best punching displays when he stopped Clark in their rematch.

Though not decked, Earnie’s punches left Clark with that signature loss of bodily control that several of Shavers’ opponents experienced after copping some big shots.

Roy Williams was another example of same with Roy ultimately teetering and tottering to the canvas. That’s scary power.

Clark was a good sized HW in his day also - 6’3” and about 220 lbs.

In all due context, that was a also very good win for Liston over Clark. and a younger version of Sonny would’ve likely seen Clark off even more easily and quickly - with a decent chance of perhaps scoring the KD/KO that Henry avoided throughout his career.

 

Great run down on Henry Clark. While I wasn’t aware of him ever being floored I couldn’t have said with 100% conviction that he was never put down.

Imo, that was one of Shavers’ best punching displays when he stopped Clark in their rematch.

Though not decked, Earnie’s punches left Clark with that signature loss of bodily control that several of Shavers’ opponents experienced after copping some big shots.

Roy Williams was another example of same with Roy ultimately teetering and tottering to the canvas. That’s scary power.

Clark was a good sized HW in his day also - 6’3” and about 220 lbs.

In all due context, that was a also very good win for Liston over Clark. and a younger version of Sonny would’ve likely seen Clark off even more easily and quickly - with a decent chance of perhaps scoring the KD/KO that Henry avoided throughout his career.

 

Nobody could just walk through his punches. He was about average 5/10 with most his flicking jabs and flurries, but when he got serious and put his weight into his shots planting his feet, you could see his opponents knees buckle and the sweat flying off their face as they got their heads rattled. 6/10 with power punches give or take. His right cross was his Sunday punch and that I would rate a 7 on his best nights with perfect form and timing.

 

To look for an example of how hard Ali's jab could be, he was able to nearly bowl Jerry Quarry over a few times with it in their rematch. By round seven, a highly distressed JQ was exhausted and finished at the very beginning of that round with a right uppercut-left hook combination. Jerry couldn't have remained on his feet for long, but Ali immediately waved in the referee to stop it. Arguably Ali's best post exile win until 1974. JQ broke down others like Mac Foster with his hooks to the body, but those hooks made no impression on Ali. (Chuvalo said punching Ali's body was like hitting cement.)


Ali-Norton II. At 25:02 (Round 4), Ali's hook knocks Norton back two steps. Round 6 with 50 seconds left, Ali drives home a right at 37:07 which makes Kenny look drunk. The slow motion replay starting at 38:08 which connects at 38:15 shows what a blast to Norton's head this was. (I like to mute and reduce the speed of the slow motion to 0.25 for fully appreciating the hardest single and most damaging single shot Ali landed in his trilogy with Kenny.) Norton ended this round with a mouse under his right eye from Muhammad's hooks. Ali's power finally gained Norton's respect. No question Ali hit Kenny harder in this one that anything Holmes landed on Norton. (Man, I hope I nailed the timing in breaking this down. I was especially looking for the right that was replayed starting at 38:08 from distant memory.) At Yankee Stadium, Ken came knowing that Muhammad could indeed hurt him.

This content is protected

Ali-Frazier II. Muhammad's very best single punch in this trilogy comes at 7:49, his right making Joe do a momentary wild jig.

This content is protected

For Muhammad to mark up Norton and swell Frazier blind in Manila (Smoke always looked like he'd been in a fight after Ali) shows some fine sustained power. Also keep in mind it took him just eight rounds to uniquely put Foreman down for the count, and George was ready to go after round five.)

 

To be fair, Foreman was mainly "ready to go" because he was flat out exhausted.

I agree Ali hurt Norton.

Norton also said hitting Ali's body was like hitting a rock.

 

Some people don't realize or have never experienced how much it drains you to miss a punch. A big guy like Foreman constantly throwing wrecking ball power punches and missing several of them or having them blocked/parried is going to make him rapidly lose stamina. In a muggy outdoor arena, this will make the energy drain even worse.

When you miss a big punch, it throws you off balance and you stumble needing to catch yourself. It goes straight to your gut and gives a very unpleasant feeling similar to butterflies when you're nervous or riding an elevator. Ali should definitely get credit for being the only guy to take Foreman out, and his punches were hurting him, but part of it was due to Foreman missing several of his wild bombs or running right into counters (Ali's counters had laser level precision and landed flush using Foreman's momentum against him). At multiple points in the fight, Foreman swung so wildly that when he missed he ended up leaning into the ropes and would have fell flat on his face if they weren't there. Credit to Ali for a brilliant game plan and tons of guts poking the bear to make him angrier and thus sloppier.

 

The Williams finish was astonishing to me the first time I saw it. Not because it was Williams (he'd seen better days by then) but the three-punch salvo Ali executes to finish the fight is just about as crisp as one will see.

 

Archie Moore stated on camera years later that the key draining tactic Ali used on Foreman was Muhammad's characteristic yanking down on the back of George's neck. Maybe, but there was no way Foreman was going the Championship Distance in a bout Muhammad was winning from the outset. Ali had a lot more behind his shots than Jimmy Young, and George was not able to compete when they were flat footed in ring center, simply being too slow to do this.

But after seven rounds, Ali was winning by official scores of 69-66, 70-67 and 68-66. Live commentary through Bob Sheridan's legendary call in Kinshasa made it clear that they had Ali winning all the way, as his power was sufficient to puff Foreman's face up. Both Muhammad and George admitted that Foreman had nothing left after just five rounds, that his power noticeably diminished that quickly. Ali let Dundee know that after round five, a round George took, but at the expense of, "Is that all you've got?" (Foreman in his mind, "Yeah, that's about it!") You see George step back after delivering that monstrous combination, and he completely deflates at that moment. (Frazier: "He's using the 'old pro' skill on George, and George is falling for it!")



With Ali-Norton II, at 51:34 during the tenth round, Chick Hearn notes, "Norton's style has changed! As if he has a new respect for Ali's punching power!" This was pivotal to both Ali-Norton II and Ali-Norton III. Ken now knew he couldn't just walk through and disdain Ali's power with abandon. He could get hurt or even floored. He also learned Muhammad's hook was nothing to be ignored.

 

Yup, everyone respected Ali's punches when he actually threw with bad intentions. They realized he wasn't just some powder punching slickster. If you look at several photos of his opponents faces, they often have major cuts, swelling, puffy eyes, etc.