Whether Liston was over-the-hill or not wasn't really the issue at the time. Liston quit pathetically. Therefore either (A) SOMETHING was wrong with him that night , or (B) He wasn't that great to start with. It's no amazing super-incredible thing to beat a man who's fighting spirit is so utterly pathetic that he surrenders his title so lameley. That was the reasoning at the time, completely unprejudiced by hindsight and romanticized views of Ali or Liston as "mythical figures". And I basically agree with that reasoning.
Very reasonable opinion. He probably wasn't as great as people thought before the fight, but he was a very dangerous fighter still and the perfomance of 22-year old Clay that night deserves a lot of credit IMO. The ending was very unsatisfactory, though.
Ali as Champ gave every body who deserved a shot a chance,which can't be said of his successor.Plus Ali fought them in their country Cooper and London in UK Mildenberger in Germany ,Chuvalo in Canada .You have to go back to 1933 when Carnera fought Uzcudon for anything like that ,and then Carnera was Italian defending on his home turf.
Joe Frazier clean out the divsion, than gave Ali a title shot. I think Frazier gave any one a shot. He only shorted Ali a rematch.
I think Liston was somewhat overestimated by the public to be honest. He brutally destroyed several opponents who I think were made for him stylistically and in all likelyhood afraid of him, giving people the indication that he was an invincible force. We now know that this was not the case however. I believe that after years of watching men like Patterson and Johansen, Liston came along at a time when he appeared to be unstoppable by comparison. A lot of people rate Liston very high from a fantastical head to head perspective, but there are quite a few great or very good heavyweights, who could stand up to him that I'd have my doubts about him beating.
Joe Frazier took on most comers until FOTC, then he opted for the easier rout. Names like Patterson, Liston, Mac Foster, Norton, Shavers, Lyle and Young are all missing in his record - as has been stated in another thread. I'm not saying that he should necessarily have fought all these guys or that they all would have caused him trouble (Patterson most defintely wouldn't, for example), but all in all it's too many names missing IMO. All you can say against Ali's record in the 60's is that he didn't fight Machen, and that Williams and Folley was past their primes when he met them. But his reign coincided with a generational gap of sorts - when the careers of guys like Machen, Folley and Williams came to a close and guys like Quarry, Ellis and Frazier had just started out. Ali pretty much fought what there was to fight in the 60's, something which quite can't be said of Frazier in the 70's.
Maybe Ali gave a shot to everyone who deserved a chance, but he gave a shot to George Chuvalo who probably didn't deserve, and did Henry Cooper really deserve a shot ? I guess the division must have been weak back then. But I think Chuvalo and Cooper must have leap-frogged several men to get those shots, surely.
Since Cooper knocked Clay down in 1963 I think many felt he should have a rematch. Chuvalo was ranked in the top 10 for quite many years from the late 50's to the early 70's. It doesn't seem unreasonable that he got at least one title shot during those years.
In all fairness, Chuvalo and Cooper were probably not terribly deserving of title shots in 1966. The problem however, is that I really can't think of anyone who was around at the time who stood out. At least Cooper and Chuvalo had the claim of being their country's national champions ( Chuvalo, Canada and Cooper, England )
No, but coming off a 10-round decision loss to Eduardo Corletti puts a huge question mark over him being due a title shot at that particular time, IMO. Two fights earlier he'd failed against Ernie Terrell for the WBA version of the title. That further dents his alleged suitability.
No he didnt, he gave shots to 3 unranked men Ziglewisz,Stander and Daniels,He could have defended against Liston ,Foster, Lyle ,Norton .Martin,Garcia for example.Ali fought Chuvalo in 66 Chuvalo was no 3 Cooper was in the top 20 in 66 London was no 10,Mildenberger was no4
I believe that there always would have been doubts surrounding Ali if not for the comeback. His critics would have claimed (as they actually do) that Liston was shot or that the fights were fixed, and would have pointed out that Williams was past it, that Folley was aging and that Patterson had a messed up back. Hell, some would probably even give credence to Terrell's claim that Ali thumbed him and rubbed his eyes against the ropes. Through coming back and beating the divisions top names even though he was clearly past his prime, Ali put many of these doubts to rest. Therefore I believe that his comeback definitely strengthened his legacy.