My p4p list #20-11

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018.


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  1. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    20. Jersey Joe Walcott
    Wins over top 50 fighters: 2

    What he could’ve done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten Rocky Marciano

    2. Beaten Ezzard Charles a majority of the time

    3. Beaten Joe Louis in the rematch

    4. Generally have less losses to inferior fighters (not exactly his fault, came into fights starving and with little training)
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beating Joe Louis, and getting robbed in the decision

    -Dethroning Ezzard Charles, knocking him out in the 3rd fight, despite being a 9-1 underdog, then winning the rematch

    -Being quoted by Marciano as the best fighter he ever fought, and the hardest puncher. Beating him 13 rounds long

    -KO'ing Johnny Shkor in 1 round, even faster than Marciano


    19. Joe Gans
    Wins against top 50 fighters: 1

    What he could’ve done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten Sam Langford

    2. Beaten Battling Nelson a majority of the time

    3. Beaten Terry McGovern

    4. Beaten Barbados Joe Walcott
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beaten Battling Nelson

    -Beaten Mike Twin Sullivan twice, both by knockout

    -KO'd lightweight champ Frank Erne in 1 round

    -General domination of division with other good names


    18. Floyd Mayweather
    Wins against top 50 fighters: 1

    What he could’ve done to rank higher:
    1. Convincingly beaten Castillo in the first fight

    2. Rematched Canelo Alvarez

    3. Fought Spence Jr or Crawford
    Most impressive feats:

    -Undefeated at 50-0 (current record)

    -Knocked out Arturo Gatti

    -Beat many world champions

    -General domination of division


    17. Archie Moore
    Wins against top 50 fighters: 0

    What he could’ve done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten ANY of his top opponents (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, etc.)
    Most impressive feats:

    -Reigned over light heavyweight division for 10 years

    -Beat multiple heavyweight contenders


    16. Jack Dempsey

    Wins against top 50 fighters: 1

    What he could've done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten Gene Tunney

    2. Fought Harry Wills

    3. Beaten Willie Meehan a majority of the time
    Most impressive feats:

    -Absolute destruction of giants like Fred Fulton, Jess Willard and Carl Morris

    -Knocking out future heavyweight champ Jack Sharkey when past Dempsey's best

    -Getting up from being knocked out of the ring to KO Luis Firpo in the next round

    -Beat Tommy Gibbons

    -Only Person to KO Billy Miske

    -Seriously should've been put in jail for what he did to Willard, one of the most durable fighters in history


    15. Marvin Hagler

    Wins against top 50 fighters: 2

    What he could've done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten Leonard
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beat Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran

    -Domination of Middleweight division


    14. Sandy Saddler

    Wins against top 50 fighters: 3

    What he could've done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten Pep in the 2nd fight

    2. Not have constantly cheated when beating Pep

    3. Generally have less losses to inferior fighters
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beat Willie Pep 3 times

    -Beat multiple world champions


    13. Roberto Duran

    Wins against top 50 fighters: 1

    What he could've done to rank higher:
    1. Not have gotten absolutely destroyed by Tommy Hearns

    2. Beaten Marvin Hagler

    3. Beaten Sugar Ray Leonard a majority of the time

    4. Generally have less losses to inferior fighters
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beat Sugar Ray Leonard

    -Domination of lightweight division


    12. Gene Tunney

    Wins against top 50 fighters: 6

    What he could've done to rank higher:
    1. Defended heavyweight cown from Jack Sharkey, Primo Carnera, Harry Wills, or Max Schmeling

    2. Beaten Harry Greb convincingly a majority of the time

    3. Beaten Tommy Loughran
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beat Harry Greb multiple times

    -Unbeaten record minus loss to Harry Greb

    -Beat past prime Dempsey twice

    -Beat past prime Tommy Gibbons, knocking him out.


    11. Sugar Ray Leonard

    Wins against top 50 fighters: 4

    What he could've done to rank higher:
    1. Beaten Hagler convincingly

    2. Retired after Hagler vs Leonard
    Most impressive feats:

    -Beating Marvin Hagler

    -Beating Tommy Hearns, by knockout

    -Beating Roberto Duran 2 times

    -General domination of division
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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  2. mark ant

    mark ant Canelo was never athletic Full Member

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    Duran didn`t have beat Hagler to prove anything because he proved everything by beating Leonard and DeJesus in amazing fashion at the lower weights where he belonged, Tommy`s reach and power were far too much for the tiny Duran, Manny would have been dispatched by Tommy for the sme reason. Mayweather figting Crawford or Spence as they became champs would have been suicide, unless he could have met one of them around 2015, I still feel at tat time Crawford would have been far too much for Floyd.
     
    mark ant, Oct 27, 2018
    mark ant, Oct 27, 2018
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  3. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    Alright let's take this 1 by 1.

    Having a short reach has it's advantages

    Roberto Duran weighed the same as Hagler and Hearns when he fought them, though I agree it was past his best weight

    Pacquiao is 5'5" and a natural lightweight, not only that but Hearns ranks higher than Pacman in my list, so yeah Hearns would've beaten him

    Doesn't matter. Floyd faced a 0-0 new boxer for his 50-0 fight instead of the top guys. Cheap trick to beat marciano's record
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Your ratings of Dempsey and Walcott are much closer to where I'd have them at HW than p4p. I feel a bit nervous that you will have Rocky in the top 10. ;)

    Probably would have Duran ahead of Leonard as well, but I can see the argument for Ray being above him.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 27, 2018
    Bokaj, Oct 27, 2018
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  5. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    I rank dempsey 6th/5th, really flip floppy with him and holmes. And i rank Walcott 12th, but I can see an argument for both being lower. However, dempsey has no place being ranked 16th in a heavyweight list imo.

    coughs nervously

    When it comes to ranking leonard and duran, you're damned if you do and damned if you dont
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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  6. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think you would have to be a big SRL fan to rate him above Duran (or Benny). But then again they are all opinions. Keep em’ coming. I have not done a list in a few years but I might be interested to see how my thoughts have changed over the past 5 years?
     
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
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  7. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    Ironically, Hagler is my favorite of the fab 4

    I'd be interested to see your list tbh, might have some names i need to do more research on
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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  8. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hagler is my favorite of the fab 4 although as a kid it was SRL by far. Not sure where my list might be? I have a box filled with notebooks scoring old fights and stuff over the past 15 years or so.

    The top would have been similar to:
    1 SRR
    2 Armstrong
    3 Greb
    4 Langford
    5 Charles
    6 Gans
    7 Fitzsimmons
    8 Benny Leonard
    9 Joe Louis
    10 Duran
    11 Walker
    12 Ali
    13 Ross
    14 Moore
    15 Pep
    16 McGovern
    17 SRL
    18 Dixon
    19 McLarnin
    20 McFarland

    But that is based on memory and might not be exactly the way I had it...and I probably didn’t factor guys like Floyd, RJJ, Pac into the equation. I try not to rate active fighters until they have been retired 5 years or so.

    But they are all opinions. I enjoy seeing them and even though I disagree with some, I learn from them. We did one on this forum a few years back and that was the last time I tried to do one. It was fun debating and defending our rankings. I am partial to longevity in my rankings.
     
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
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  9. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    >Pep below Moore
    >Louis below Gans and Leonard
    >Armstrong above Langford
    >McGovern, George Dixon and McFarlan in the top 20
    >No Marciano

    Thats about my main differences with it, honestly thats a pretty unique list, never seen anything like it. Definitely never seen anyone put Ali outside of the top 10
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Interesting stab.

    Walcott didn't make my top 100. I can see almost no argument for his inclusion.

    Jack Dempsey also didn't make my top 100. I can't see his being this high as anything like defendable. Could you give me a brief outline for why he ranks higher than Jung Koo Chang?

    I'm quite tempted by some of your rankings if i'm honest, but there are defo more differences than not in our thinking.
     
    McGrain, Oct 27, 2018
    McGrain, Oct 27, 2018
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  11. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not much between Moore and Pep for my money? Again this is based upon memory...but they are consistently ranked closely on credible lists.

    Gans and Leonard are generally top 10 guys but fringe top 15 on others. Louis and Ali fluctuate back and forth depending on who you rate the GOAT...I am not as favorable towards the HW’s as you have been so far. But to each thier own.

    Armstrong can actually make a solid case for #1 IMO, but I can’t fault anyone who rates Langford above him?

    McGovern Dixon and McFarland frequent top 20 lists and are seldom outside of the top 30.

    Marciano- lol you must rate him higher than me at HW and overall. Not sure he cracks my top 50 p4p?

    But either way I appreciate your list and the fact that you have the stones to put one out there and open yourself up to criticism.

    Edit: check out Mcgrain’s top 100 and you will see McGovern listed top 20 (as well as Rocky at 65)

    https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-top-100-pound-for-pound-all-time-greats.459918/

    And in Flea’s bantamweight thread he has McGovern in his top 10 p4p atg’s

    https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-10-greatest-bantamweights.616459/page-18

    Other people’s opinions are not the end all, but I do respect both of thier insights and see some similar ratings that bring me peace of mind lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
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  12. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    Beating Louis but getting robbed, knocking out ezzard charles then solidifying the win, and giving marciano the hardest fight of his career. Not to mention sprinkles of good wins against Shkor, Harold Johnson, and Joey Maxim, all top fighters of the time. Also bias by me.

    My own general ignorance combined with no impressive names on Jung Koo Chang's resume, as well as Dempsey's superior domination over his top tier competition.
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Let's see.

    Ali, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, Wlad, Rocky, Holy, Frazier, Tyson, Foreman, Johnson (in no order) would all be ahead of him and quite likely Liston, Wills and Jeffries as well. So probably in the 12-15 range for me at HW.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 27, 2018
    Bokaj, Oct 27, 2018
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  14. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree I see little case for Dempsey as a top 10 HW, let alone top 20 p4p?
    I have him on my 12-13 slot with Liston.
     
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
    PhillyPhan69, Oct 27, 2018
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  15. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    I have never seen one man do as much damage to his opponents without killing them as dempsey did. The only ones close would be louis, marciano, and julian jackson.

    Imo Dempsey would knock out half the people you put above him on that heavyweight list (i rank individual weight classes as h2h, not greatness)

    No question that dempsey beats wills. He beat sharkey, who beat wills. Langford himself said that dempsey would beat wills. Dempsey also destroyed Fred Fulton, the man Langford heralded as the next heavyweight champion, with 1 right to his jaw, in 18 seconds.

    The context of his feats are more impressive than the feats themselves

    I think his competition is underrated too. Firpo, young Sharkey, Willard, Gibbons, etc.
     
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 27, 2018
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