People pick Joe over super heavies but not Marciano

For the most part, neither was Frazier beating modern size super heavyweights. 200 pounds is not a magic number. What top tier heavyweight today is at or barely 200 pounds? If Holyfield fought in the 1970s, he'd have been fighting at 187-190 pounds his whole career. And a 187-190 pound Holyfield would have done excellent in Frazier’s HW era and would consistently be a top contender. But he had to bulk up for the era he was in. David Benavidez would be a heavyweight in the 60s and 70s. At 6'2 196 pounds and bigger than Henry Cooper, yes he would. Call him a light heavyweight all you want. Not a light heavyweight by the standards of the year Frazier turned pro.

Frazier had T Rex arms compared to today's HW, also had a hittable style and was prone to swelling. Every criticism of Marciano applies to some degree to Frazier. But suddenly the criticism doesn't count when it's Frazier

What 5'11 205 pound swarmer that relies principally on a left hook is rated in the top 10 since the 90s, let alone a dominant undefeated champion? Especially 205 during same day weigh ins. Like it or not, Durham would have Frazier shedding the 6 whole pounds and weighing in at 199 and fighting at cruiserweight. Right with Marciano.

DB is taller and has a similar reach to Frazier but he's not venturing up to heavyweight to agitate for a fight with AJ or Fury or Wlad (if they were in the same era)

 

They are not clones of each other.

Frazier beat Ali. I would not pick Marciano to do so.

I am also not sure Joe would beat Walcott.

That is not inconsistent.

 

Not clones, however do have similar strengths and weaknesses. I think Ali would be more likely to open up a cut on Rocky and get a cut stoppage. I don't think Walcott would beat Frazier but I think Walcott makes it a war

 

Just because two fighters have similar strengths and weaknesses or similar builds doesn’t mean it is inconsistent to pick one of them to beat someone in a fantasy fight and pick the other to lose to the same guy.

You, in fact, just did it yourself — Frazier beat Ali, but you pick Ali to beat Marciano.

 

Yeah but that's different from saying Marciano is too small.

Let's take Lennox Lewis. Most will give Marciano no chance against Lewis, but those exact same reasons also apply to Frazier.

No reason to think a Lewis uppercut stops Marciano but Frazier bulldozes his way through it to engage Lewis in Mortal Kombat when Frazier and Marciano were of similar durability. Marciano just cut easier. But no one is saying Lewis stops him on cuts after a battle of titans. Just he gets bulldozed over.

I honestly think it's because Frazier was in the so called golden era. It's the same reason why people are loathe to admit that many of today's light heavyweights would be valid Patterson, Liston, Ali and Frazier opponents. Because admitting that means that a good bulk of the top heavyweights of the era would be light heavyweights and not modern heavyweights today.

DB was 6'2 196 in his last fight and was looking good. With a 74 inch reach, he'd have been a valid heavyweight in the golden era and likely a top rated contender. So would Kovalev, Beterbiev and Michael Spinks. And they likely would be top rated contenders and if multiple belts were around back then, would have a great chance at capturing a heavyweight belt.

But then that would mean many of the top contenders of the 60s and early 70s golden age would be fighting as light heavyweights and cruiserweights today, which they feel diminishes the heavyweight golden age.

Zurdo was the same size as Jimmy Ellis when DB stopped him.

 

Again you're missing the point.

No Heavyweight after Marciano has under a 70 inch reach and been rated in the top 10 there's a reason for that.

Marciano was great for his time in the recent Heavyweight rankings thread I rated him in my top 5.

But his style and attributes are not suited for the modern era of Heavyweights.

Not that i'm saying Frazier wouldn't struggle either.

But you're not taking into account that being 20 pounds heavier with a 6 inch reach advantage that Frazier has on Marciano is a pretty big advantage.

And whilst they are both swarmers they don't really fight the same way.

Marciano would bend to the side and make himself smaller.

Where as Frazier used to bob and weave.

Frazier also had considerably better footwork than Marciano.

And finally their offence was also not remotely similar either.

Marciano is simply too small especially in the reach department.

Gets hit too much.

Too prone to cuts.

Frazier logically would do better against bigger Heavyweights IMO.

 

Joe was 15-20 pounds heavier than Marciano.

You saying you think Marciano was stronger or as strong doesn’t mean everyone agrees with your assessment.

You saying they’d both be cruisers today doesn’t make it so. I say with a day-before weigh-in, Rocky would be a light heavy and Joe, with modern nutrition and weight training, would be a 215- to 220-pound full heavyweight. Hell, he fought at those weights in real life. Joe was bigger than Rocky.

Joe was an aggressively savage body puncher who could bob and weave to get under or outside a jab. Rocky waded in more carefully, often kind of leaning back … which is an invitation to manslaugher against a powerful behemoth with greater reach — imo it would not work with a guy like Lewis …but Joe got through Ali’s jab so I think he’s more likely to wade through against guys that Marciano couldn’t.

I can give you 1,000 reasons why someone might pick Joe to beat someone they wouldn’t pick Marciano to beat, but you’re convinced everyone should see Frazier and Marciano as mirror images where what’s true for one must be true for the other … and that people should come to the same conclusions as you.

Yours is, to me, a frankly foolish thesis.

I will spell it out once more for you: Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano ARE NOT THE SAME FIGHTER. Anything based on that foundation is flawed, because they are not.

Wlad and Vitali are much more similar than Joe and Rocky. Hell, they come from the same gene pool, literally. By your logic, if one of them beats Corrie Sanders then so must the other. Same with Chris Byrd, etc. Yet that is not what happened. That should tell you how flawed your thesis is.

(For the record, I wouldn’t favor either to beat Wlad nor Lennox.)

You are entitled to your opinion. Where you are missing the boat is that your thesis for this thread is that other people are not entitled to theirs … they must see Joe and Rocky as the same — which is how you see them. And we absolutely do not have to see it that way.

 

How do we know with modern nutrition and PEDs and weight training Marciano wouldn't be a muscular 220 pounds while not losing the attributes he had in his day? We don't know it about Frazier nor Marciano. I can say with modern training and nutrition, Max Baer and Buddy Baer dominates the 1990s heavyweight division. No one knows that.


I know they're not the same fighter but both would be too small for modern day heavies with their size and style, which is similar. But no one wants to admit it. Just like there's no 5'10 185-190 pound swarmer is for the same reasons there's no 5'11 205 lbs swarmer that depends on a left hook in today's heavyweight division.

 

Frazier was great for his time but he gets hit too much.

His style and attributes aren't suited to modern day heavies. Like there's no 185 pound swarmers who start slow dominating there's also no 205 pound, left hook dependent swarmers that start slow dominating and hasn't been since Frazier.

Marciano hit hard with both hands, while Frazier frequently depended on a left hook. It's debatable who had better offense.

You can argue Frazier gets hit too much and is prone to swelling.

Both would fight as cruiserweights, but Marciano may start at light heavyweight and move up to cruiserweight. You know who else would make light heavyweight? One of the flagship heavies of the so called golden age, Jerry Quarry. DB is 6'2 196 lbs in his last fight with a 74 inch reach. Quarry was 6'0 195-200 with a 72 inch reach.

I think Marciano and Frazier generally fare the same against the top heavies. Both could likely beat cherry picked modern heavyweights. Neither beat AJ or Wlad or Fury. Not a 185 pound slow starting swarmer nor a 205 pound slow starting swarmer. For the same reason

He didn't "get through Ali's jab", except for if you don't count the hundreds of jabs he took in over 40 rounds. Ali wasn't a power puncher. Foreman's jab stopped him in his tracks.

 

So you think Joe and Rocky were the same size?

I don’t know what to tell you.

There were both measured and weighed. They weren’t.

 

Rocky Marciano and Joe were in my opinion two all time great heavyweights. But I generally don’t favor EITHER of them to beat great heavies who had a lot of size on them .