Pick one lightheavyweight to fight Jack Johnson

As said fair enough, I dont think is conclusive either way,no matter I beleive it was a fix and that Ketchel got too frisky,but thats by the by.

 

The news paper report says Ketchel was hurting in round 10, but had Johnson bothered in round 11. IMO, this was not a fixed fight. Both men were in shape, and trying to win.

 

Much of Johnsons career would not have a direct paralel in the career of a modern fighter.

Fighters in that period had little or no amateur background when they turned profesional and had to fight under circumstances that would simply never be alowed today. Johnson himself was sleeping rough when he started fighting guys like Klondike Haines and Hank Griffin.

They also somtimes went on fighting for 10 or 20 years after they were shot because there was no other source of income for them. Imagine what Mike Tysons record would look like if he fought regularly over the next 10 years.

The only portion of a fighters career that is usualy comparable between eras is their prime. Jack Johnson in his prime run would have had similar training facilities to a modern fighter and enter the ring in similar condition. Where he was overmatched in terms of oponent or schedule it would be obvious.

 

I dont know how anyone can watch the fight see Johnson stagger Ketchel twice ,then grab him to hold him up,and still aver the fight was legit,Johnson carried Ketchel,you can see him picking Ketchel up like a doll and placing him where he likes. Mendoza I know you dont like Johnson ,but for the life of me I dont know how you cant see this.

 

"Where is the rematch to clear thing s up".Firstly Johnson ,knowing he could only lose by a ko ,which was highly unlikely as OBrien was a non hitter,took the opportunity to come in out of shape ,he had been boozing the night before,and was hungover,reports say OBrien ran around the ring ,Johnson ,leered and grinned ,and padded around after him nonchalantly ,secure that his title was safe and he was on a pay day for doing as little as possible.Secondly the reason there was no rematch was 21 days later Ketchel kod OBrien in 3 rds,which dented his credibility as a challenger some what:good

 

Working backwards, Johnson liked to mug to the crowd and make the other guy mad when he could afford to, which is what he could do early vs Ketchel before Ketchel hurt him. Johnson similar things to the 168 pound Burns, and to Fireman Flynn.

If O'Brien gave a prime Johnson an even fight, he deserves a re-match ASAP to clear his good standing as champion. Johnson never gave him one. I posted the fight review. It was close. Can you show me one report from a new paper that said Johnson was drunk for the O’Brien fight?

Do you think Ketchel fight was a fix? If so, how do we know what is real or not with Johnson? He says the Willard fight was a fix too. Not likely.

Also, why did Johnson not give Jim Johnson a re-match? Reports say the journeyman Jim Johnson was the better.

Let's go on what happened in the ring on flim and in the newspapers reports. Johnson was suspect in some of his championship fights vs lesser men.

 

" If he gave a prime Johnson an even fight ,he deserves a rematch" But he didnt give him an even fight and Johnson wasnt prime he had done next to no training for the affair and was hungover,so he wasnt prime.I am challenging you on O Brien fight ,not the Johnson and Willard ones ,we can get to those later.You have a news report that Obrien put up a good showing ,Ive read at least 3 books which are researched a bit more than a paper. which state that a lethargic Johnson did next to nothing ,and that OBrien ran like a thief..Given that OBrien was kod in 3 rds by Ketchel 21 days after this less than wholesome spectacle,how did he deserve a rematch?Please adress the question. Now as to your other points . I beleive that the Willard fight was on the level,that Johnson tried to take out Willard ,gassed out and was legitimately kod ,Johnson was 37 , fat , and not in shape to go 45 rounds with his wife ,let alone a big strong hungry challenger ,Jack tried but failed ,thats what I beleive.As to the Jim Johnson fight ,there is one question that seems to be crucial to this ,was it a 10 rounder or not?If it was scheduled for 10 and Johnson struggled through with a broken arm ,and the referee thought honours were even then its a draw. If however it was scheduled for anything over 10rds,I see no reason why Jim Johnson should not have been proclaimed Champion.See how easy it is to be objective? You should try it.I have learned two things about you Mendoza1you will never miss an opportunity to sing the praises of Jim Jeffries,2 You will never miss an opportunity to denigrate Jack Johnson, a while back you accused me of carrying a grudge against you, well my fellow poster ,I think Its you who are carrying a grudge ,and its against a man who has been dead over 60 years. Since 1946 to be exact.

 

After the Johnson no dec OBrien had 9 more fights,he won 1 of them and was kod twice,thats the way to get a title shot!

 

Can you show me one report where a writer says OBrien deserved a rematch? If the fight was as close as you say,and given that OBrien was White ,why didnt the 100% White establishmenet and sporting press demand a rematch?WHy wasnt there a crusade to force Johnson to meet OBrien,as all the press wanted a white Champion?Simple answer OBrien wasnt a viable ,or credible challenger,he was 33 ,had 9 more fights of which he only managed to win one and was kod early in two of them,he was done!The stick you are using to beat Johnson just broke!

 

The O'Brien fight was not a full on title fight in the way that the Ketchel or Jeffries fights were.

It was a short bout to make some pin money for Johnson and O'Brien would have needed a knockout to win.

 

Extract from Fleischers"The Heavyweight Championship".Following his victory over Burns,the Champion won a six round decision at Vancouver over Victor Mcglaglen,later a leading motion picture actor.He also boxed no decision bouts with Philadelphia Jack OBrien,Tony Ross and Al Kaufman.In none of those affairs did Johnson exert himself to any great degree.He won as he pleased,and it satisfied him to loaf along jabbing and picking his opponents to pieces."
Extract from Randy Roberts "Papa Jack""There was nothing about the fight that Johnson took seriously.Reporters claimed he trained for the fight at Coles gymnasium,but nobody actually ever saw him training."He entered the ring overweight and in poor condition "."It was an uninspiring fight.OBriens attack was timid,and Johnsons consisted mainly of laughter.He smiled, waved to the crowd,and made no attempt to hide the purpose for his presence. He was there for the $5000 gaurantee,for that and nothing else".

 

Exactly ! and as OBrien was in decline and possessed virtually zero punching power ,Johnson took the opportunity to come into the ring out of shape ,secure in the knowledge that he was in no danger of losing his crown ,and happy to pick up his $5000 gaurantee for doing as little as possible.Of course if you hate Johnson as much as Mendoza ,you will try and read any old crap in to it

 

Let's deal with reality here. A past his prime O'Brien, all 160-165 pounds of him made the heavyweight champion of the world look bad in 6 rounds. Facts.

Read the report and you'll see. I still say if they wanted a white hope to beat Johnson, Jack O'Brien should have got a re-match right away based on this efort. This credible report says O'Brien won rounds 2,3, and 4, and called the first roudn EVEN in a six round fight. Read and then spin away......

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9406E2D8153EE733A25753C2A9639C946897D6CF&oref=slogin[/url]

 

Facts are they both looked like ****! Johnson because he hadnt trained and was in no danger of losing his title ,and OBrien because he was washed up.Why dont you answer the questions 1 Given that O Brien was kod in 3 rds 21 days later by a middle weight ,how did he deserve a title fight?
2 If OBriens showing was as good as you say ,why didnt the white press and establishment call for a title fight?You are sad.

 

It does not sound like O'brien looked bad at all. He didn't have a punch or a chin, yet look what he did! Where is Johnson's vaunted defense vs a skilled boxer? Please explain? The re-match should have ordered been ASAP. Ketchell defeating an old O'brien means nothing, except makes Johnson look that much worse. And Ketchell flooring Johnson does not make Johsnon look good either. Outboxed by one middle, and floored by another.

The white press had no say who Johnson fought. We know that McCarty, and Gunboat Smith ( Who TKOd Johnson in a sparring match ) were better heavies than O’Brien. We know that Langford, McVey, and Jeanette were also better heavies that O’Brien.

The white hope stuff is miss-understood. The white fighters that got shots were old, or hacks, not skilled. The best two white fighters never got a title match ( McCarty, and Smith ) , and O'Brien who was also white looked to edge Johnson in a six rounder never got a re-match. Geez.

The championship title fights was all Johnson's call in those days. There was no commission-forcing mandatory’s. We have been over this before, just like we have been over Johnson had 30-50K offers to face McVey, Jeanette, and Langford, but balked. For shame. No, re-match with Jim Johnson either and he deserved to win that title fight. A robbery.

We have been over all of the above before. You are romped, and do not view things objectively on Johnson. Don’t call me sad, I have the papers to back up what I saying. The truth is good enough, and that truth says Johnson was suspect far more than you’ll ever allow yourself to believe.

If you want to go over the news reads, and try to re-write history, let me know. I have them, and rest assured I had no say in writing any of them.