Please Participate--All Time Lightweight Survey (POLL CLOSED!!)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Oct 29, 2009.


  1. PunchOut

    PunchOut Active Member Full Member

    1,236
    2
    Apr 26, 2009
    nothing in the lists above can be serious without JCC

    1. Julio Cesar Chavez
    2. Roberto Duran
    3. Benny Leonard
    4. Henry Armstrong
    5. Pernell Whitaker
    6. Ike Williams
    7. Henry Armstrong
    8. Tony Canzoneri
    9. Barney Ross
    0. Ismael Laguna
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,074
    48,251
    Mar 21, 2007
    Chavez>Leonard, who knew?
     
  3. PunchOut

    PunchOut Active Member Full Member

    1,236
    2
    Apr 26, 2009
    All Day man

    All day
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,767
    29,160
    Jun 2, 2006
    Apart from a dec over Young Griffo ,who was a feather weight ,which win of McAuliffe's justifies him being in your top ten Mac?
    Not having a pop, because we all have our own favourites ,but his wins are largely over no bodies as far as I can see.Maybe you know more about them than me ,as its not my era of interest.
    Personally I would rate George Kid Lavigne over McAuliffe.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,767
    29,160
    Jun 2, 2006
    Three great wins at the weight is obviously enough to make him your number one.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,074
    48,251
    Mar 21, 2007
    Well before we get to his best wins, we've got his consistancy. 13 years, 9 world title bouts. Think about that, what it takes to be unbeaten over that length of time with a big target on your back that says BEST. Why does he even need great wins? His record speaks of a little Marciano.

    I was speaking with Janitor and Boilermaker about Ryan today and yesterday. I can't speak for them, but having a closer look at some original sources what struck me was not so much that Ryan is forgotten, but that his opponents are. This tarnishes Ryan's legacy. Same thing with McAullife.

    Check out this thread I did a few days back (co-incidently - i came across this fighter without having even though about McAuliffe) on Jimmy Carroll:

    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178729

    This guy matched and beat some of the best lightweights in the world through the 80's and 90's and the best bare-knuckle fighters England had to offer in the 70's (supposedly). I don't think "contender" really cuts it - Carroll is arguably a borderilne great in his own right (possibly stronging it a bit, like any new find i'm excited by this fighter). McAulliffe gets no credit for this scalp because none of us know he exsists (or most of us don't).

    Their fight, detailed in the thread, may have been one of the ATG battles. A 47 round war and Jack pulls it out with a last-punch rally whilst dead on his feet against an absolute top-drawer warrior who would become a veteran so sustained he makes Hopkins's longevity look like a quick burn-out...McAullife beat the best of his era over a 13 year period and was never once beaten...were they all bums i'd be calling for him to be in the top 10, as it is I think he's top 5.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,074
    48,251
    Mar 21, 2007
    Carroll fought top men over three decades when boxing was even tougher than it is now. Amazing stuff.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,767
    29,160
    Jun 2, 2006
    I am sorry, I just can't get past the fact that he feasted on non entities,true he was undefeated but who was he fighting?
    Look at their resumes,even if some of them are incomplete ,they were novices .Carroll was 35 years old when they met and his record? well look it up.
    You have McAuliffe at no 4 and Canzoneri at no 9 ?
    As a lightweight Canzoneri beat.
    Klick
    Ambers
    Mclarnin
    Chocolate x2
    Petrolle
    Berg
    Singer
    Arizmendi
    McAuliffe ,who was known to have his own referee on occasion , beat who?
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,074
    48,251
    Mar 21, 2007

    You've really surprised me. I thought that thread demonstrated pretty clearly that Carroll had a decent record and made it pretty clear that only a fraction of his record was available on Boxrec. Like I said, I think Carroll has a claim at borderline greatness. I've got TWO confirmed losses to him, both to Jack. As to his age when they met, so? He showed incredible stamina, his stamina at 35 is completely proven, and he was winning tough fights around that time...it means nothing to me what age he was.

    If you genuinely think that MacAuliffe was "feasting on non-entities" you need to look again. Hard.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,767
    29,160
    Jun 2, 2006
    I think you can stay champion quite a long time ,if for the most part, you are fighting men of nondescript talent .How many lightweights can you name who were anywhere near their prime at 35?

    From what I have read of the Carney fight,[who was probably the best name on his lightweight resume],Carney was ahead when the crowd broke the ring down giving the referee no alternative but to call the fight a draw.

    I will give you a name , a Lightweight champion,whom I garauntee ,won't make anyone's top ten,his resume makes McAuliiffe's look decidedly average.
    He beat these guys, the number of bouts they had when he did so is next to their names.
    Contrast them with the opponents McAuliffe met.


    Rocky Kansas 72
    Sid Terris 66
    Johnny Dundee 122
    Billy Petrolle 62
    Jackie Fields 31
    Jimmy Mclarnin 42
    Tony Canzoneri 72
    Babe Herman 73
    6 out of the 8 given were world champions,and at least 2 of them all time greats.
    Sammy Mandell is his name, and no one will put him anywhere near the top ten, yet ,you picked out McAuliffe,and Boilermaker puts him in the top 3?
    Still, I suppose that's what its all about personal choices, hell ,I pick Dempsey to ko Louis!
    What do I know?
     
  11. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,726
    3,568
    Jul 10, 2005

    I have McAuliffe vs Dempsey and Carpentier around 1919-1921 about.

    Nothing much one can say about McAuliffe, because well, he was slapping punchings and look arkward, but it was all fun and games, We need REAL fight footage to know for sure.

    He did have good footwork for a man in his 50's though.
     
  12. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

    11,935
    92
    Aug 21, 2008
    1. Benny Leonard
    2. Henry Armstrong
    3. Pernell Whitaker
    4. Ike Williams
    5. Roberto Duran
    6. Alexis Arguello
    7. Barney Ross
    8. Carlos Ortiz
    9. Willie Ritchie
    10. Julio Cesar Chavez


    I've always been fairly consistent with my top 5 picks, but my bottom 5 is largely interchangeable to me.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,074
    48,251
    Mar 21, 2007
    But "Non-descripte talent"? "Non-entities"? Your position is either that a) McAullfie ducked the top men of his era or b) McAuliffe fought in an era where the top men were below the level of journeymen. It seems pretty obvious to me that it's neither. McAuliffe didn't duck anyone to my knowledge and so it's fair to say that he's one of the most dominant lighweight champion in history, as well the longest-standing.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,767
    29,160
    Jun 2, 2006
    They may have been the top men of their time, but how many fights had they had?
    I dont say McAuliffe ducked anyone,but was there anyone out there to duck?
    Nine defences in thirteen years isnt earth shattering ,and may point towards my premise that quality was thin on the ground.
    Any info on the fight with Carney ,which I read he was losing?
    Straight out, does his resume compare with Canzoneri's or Mandell's. One of which you rate considerably below him and the other you don't rank at all.
    Nothing personal Mac, I love your posts just trying to get into your mindset, on this one.
     
  15. wow_junky

    wow_junky Retired Full Member

    1,317
    0
    Jun 21, 2008
    No Whitaker?