Please rate Cleveland Williams?

I think his two year break from boxing was due to military service.

 

When, as you say, did Cleveland Williams fight George Foreman? Also, when precisely was he in a position to challenge for Patterson's title?

 

Yes it appears williams did go into the military right after that shattering loss.

 

He struggled a lot with heavier guys even ones with very poor records. He would not fare well today. He was decent puncher but really he knocked out guys mainly that were what would be Chris Byrd sized guys today.

Most of his knockouts were against guys weighing less than 210. His win % against good opponents is about a 50% win all in which those guys were over 210.

 

I think the best explanation for Williams match making was that he had lousy management. He was obviously worthy of better development but they looked no further than trying to create a long “Lamar Clark type” unbeaten record for Williams in Florida. The opponents were dug up. Dead men walking types. they decided to cash him in after the Sylvester Jones disaster and threw him in with Satterfeild. I think that career was mostly bogus. Not strictly a legit career. Very bad business.

I don’t know who took him on the second time around after his two years absence. He was now fighting in Texas and On occasion Miami for about three years only against stiffs before getting Sonny Liston. It’s like he was launched with extreme caution. If anyone feared him at this point I don’t understand how anyone could know who williams was. He wasn’t fighting anybody. Frankie Daniels a light heavyweight and Howie Turner took him the distance. It’s like he was being groomed from scratch. And those two provided rounds and probably taught him to fight. I doubt he was good enough before this.

Williams breakout fight was actually the pounding he received from Sonny. After that he seems to be matched like a regular contender would be and he begins to land fights with Miteff, Wayne Bethea, young Jack Johnson, Alonzo Johnson, Sonny banks who were from the circuit of journeymen that all the other Contenders would beat up. He’s not fighting guys called graveyard walters, candy McDaniels and Baby Booze anymore. So he started to win fights against Rischer and Billy Daniels which were good. The draw with Machen too. If the loss to Terrell put things into perspective then it’s worth noting Williams was good enough to stop Ernie when Terrell wasn’t quite ready. So he had ability during that 1961-64 window.

 

He never fought foreman, foreman said he sparred with him, and if he won against Liston than he would've had the title shot against patterson, Cleveland and floyd were both in the top 3 fighters of the same era but never fought

 

Williams was rated in 1959.

 

Williams was unrated and pretty unknown before meeting Liston since he had not beat a name opponent before then. Neither one of the Liston-Williams bouts was a title eliminator.

Please tell me what particular win that Williams had before meeting Liston that could have possibly landed him with a rating?

Liston himself was not the logical contender to the title until after the conclusion of the Patterson-Johansson series. With the rematch clause in place the logical contender to any new champion was always the ex champion.

Liston was always firmly behind Johansson in the ratings before Ingo challenged Floyd in 1959.

 

By whom?

 

Those that matter

 

After beating williams liston beat machen. though liston claimed he felt confident that he would beat Patterson after he beat williams, but if williams did beat liston those two times he would've ended up fighting machen who probably could'v beat him considering how he gave liston problems , but like I was saying if he did, he would've fought Patterson who he has a huge stylistic advantage over and defintly would have beaten

 

I don’t have a rating for him until Williams beat Miteff. I have Magazines that list him in 1961 but that’s it.

 

He was NBA top 10 at some point in 59.

 

Patterson might have killed Williams. I don’t think Williams was as good as Tommy hurricane Jackson who Patterson beat with absolute ease. Jackson beat better fighters than Williams did, he was just as tall. Patterson also beat Bonavena and Chuvalo. Chuvalo actually beat Williams. If you look at it there isn’t anything onWilliams record to suggest he would beat Patterson or Johansson. Nothing at all. Which particular wins point to Williams beating Patterson? Have you even seen film of prime Williams against the much thinner Billy Daniels? He had Williams do the chicken dance.

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