POUND FOR POUND - JC CHAVEZ or BARRERA ?

I think the actual h2h between two fighters should be a more significant factor in deciding who was greater, than reducing it to purely performances against two opponents.

- Barrera lost to Junior Jones, Morales beat Junior.
- Pacquiao beat Barrera 2-0 (one stoppage), beat Morales 2-1 (both stoppages).

Is this more important in determining who was greater than the fact they fought three times and Barrera won twice, and was the better man over the course of the trilogy?

Plus, Barrera's win over Hamed beats anything on Morales's resume other than his Pacquiao win, which was twice avenged so Morales didn't hold any magic formula there. And if you're going down the common opponents route (which I don't value especially), MAB dispatched Paulie Ayala and Kevin Kelley with considerably more ease than Morales did. MAB in his senior years was able to drop p4p#2 JMM and push him hard in a competitive performance, whereas Morales lost to Raheem and David Diaz, guys nowhere near JMM's league.

At the time of the 1st Pac-MAB fight, Pac had only fought in the USA a couple of times on undercards, and he had 2 stoppage losses on his record. Barrera was p4p#3 and coming off the best sequence of results in his career (in the past 2 years he had beaten Morales, Tapia, Hamed, Kelley). He was facing a relative unknown in the West, this was not a big fight. I think it is very probable that MAB was complacent. How was anyone to know this guy from the Philippines with 2 stoppage losses was going to be as rapid and as powerful as he was?? Immediately after that fight, MAB had had a scare and was back to winning ways beating quality opposition in Paulie Ayala, and Morales again.

By the time Morales fought Pac, Pac was a known quantity, and Morales used a clever gameplan to outpoint him. Now this may be of some value, if Pac hadn't came back and obliterated him twice - but he did!

So we're left with Junior Jones. If Morales beat Jones and Jones beat MAB, so Morales is greater than MAB... then Barrera beat McKinney and McKinney beat Jones, so Barrera is greater than Jones... and Barrera beat Morales anyway!

This is all trivial stuff, and I do understand Pea's point about adaptability, but more important than those examples cited are that Morales couldn' t adapt to Barrera to ultimately get the better of him, nor could he adapt to Pacquiao to ultimately get the better of him.

If the Junior Jones stylistic anomaly is the sole factor which downgrades Barrera, then so must Vernon Forrest downgrade the greatness of Shane Mosley, Ricardo Mayorga downgrade Forrest, Montell Griffin downgrade James Toney, Jermain Taylor downgrade Bernard Hopkins, and even Muhammad Ali must suffer because of Ken Norton. However, I view these things as one-off bad stylistic match-ups that can happen to anyone (seriously, anyone), IMO it shouldn't be the deciding factor.

MAB and Morales are so closely matched, but I believe Barrera was the greater of the two.

 

Come on out and explain your disdain for JC Chavez, Robbi?

It may make you feel better!

Listen to yourself Robbi...."He outboxed Rocky Juarez."......who the hell would'nt?
You dont have to be a masterboxer to outbox Juarez.

When you say MAB outboxed a certain fighter, at least name a good boxer that he actually outboxed.

Erik Morales and Junior Jones were the best "boxers" that MAB ever faced......yet MAB got beat twice by Jones, and when he was boxing Erik Morales, Morales was getting the better of the boxing session.
Fight #2 is the best example of both of them boxing for long spurts and Morales got the better of the boxing.
In all three fights, it was'nt until MAB applied the come foward pressure and got inside Morales reach to slug, that he got the better of it.

MAB was an overrated boxer imo.

I'm with most people in this thread....I really do find it hard to find categories where MAB is better than Chavez......

I was just thinking when this who was better Chavez or MAB was brought up to question during an HBO broadcast......Chavez who has never been a favorite of HBO and MAB who has always been an HBO favorite.....
Lampley was going on and on about MAB's boxing skills, to the point that they were implying that MAB may have taken over of being Mexico's best.....

.....George Foreman who was part of the broadcast crew back then was'nt saying too much if anything.......but as Lampley went on and on and fawned over MAB's abilities......George Foreman finally had enough and blew his top...... ......"Stop this, BLASPHEMEY! BLASPHEMY!, Big George yelled out.
Foreman went on to say that though MAB was a fine fighter, he was nowhere near in Chavez' class or league.
I believe he even went on to say that it was even nonsense to compare the two!

I'll forever have a place in my heart for Big George Foreman to step in like that and end the fawning orgie the HBO crew had that night for MAB!:yep

Does anybody remember that?

 

Chavez easily. Pacquiao vs. Chavez would have been a more interesting debate even though Chavez will take that one too.

 

Chavez easily; he is the finest Mexican ever, MAB merely a top 10 Mexican.

 

Throughout Barrera's career, i was a massive fan, always my favourite fighter up until very late on in his career (tastes move on, you know how it is). But some of the losses make him fall behind Chavez, although there are similarities between the overall nature of the losses of each fighter it must be said. But MAB DID do some things better than Chavez, to deny this is madness, better boxer no doubt, the way he could put combos together at distance was great. Chavez did show a bit of very good (imo) boxing ability at times, surprised me, but nowhere near enough to be put on the level of Barrera in that respect, come on. Chavez the betterinfighter thugh, i think slightly stronger p4p, better chin no doubt, possibly an overall more indomitable will to win (maybe except for when Barrera fought Morales, his competitveness was at the height of its game when them two shared the ring). That argument of Barrera being 'better' and Chavez being 'greater' is valid, though not a point i will argue nor try and prove myself. Barrera might be the more powerful of the two p4p aswell, something people are not really talking about, Chavez stronger, as i already mentioned. Chavez' offensive arsenal may be of a wider range also, i still think Julio was the more composed FIGHTER, but thats close aswell.

In terms of what they did/legacies, they both beat top fighters of their times, Barrera i think possibly has the better 'best' wins though, but the nature of Chavez' losses not as hurtful as Barrera's, thats where i edge towards Chavez here, the greater fighter for me.

I did a big thread sometime back in where i detailed how after their careers i am more of a Morales fan and how i think he is POSSIBLY the greater fighter overall in hindsight, but that may just be because ultimately i regard him of more of a warrior and its just something i cant shake my admiration and respect for. Morales definitely ranks higher at a single weight class history wise than Barrera does in any particular other one, thats 122, regardless that i thought Barrera beat him there, the body of work by that young Morales was immense. But Barrera will always come out with more wins than Morales would if they fought multiple times imo, he just didnt want Erik to beat him, in that light, maybe Barrera was better when he was 'on'.

Didnt think i'd be singing so much praises for these 3 great fighters when i started this post!

 

Divac, I have no biased views regarding Chavez. You can't handle that I happen to think Barrera was the more well rounded and skilled fighter. You disagree, fair enough. I even have Chavez over him 'pound for pound'. You once claimed I was biased against Chavez. Which I'm not happy with in the slightest. You're the only person on ESB who comes to the conclusion that I'm biased. I'm anything 'but'. You and Chavez seems to be a very 'touche' subject when people have views you don't like and disagree with.

I think it's been a combination of Barrera IMO being more 'skilled' on this thread and my recent opinion that Whitaker beats Chavez handily as well at lightweight.

You're losing my respect Divac. I happen to see you as a decent poster who should be on the classic section often instead of the general. I'm obviously not gaining any favours with you with a difference of opinion on your #1 ATG.

 

My post was'nt made to insult your opinion or your knowleadge Robbi.

I happen to disagree with you vehemently on this subject on who the better skill fighter between the two, Chavez and MAB.

This forum is for debates, and though I disagree with you on this issue, it does'nt interfere with me respecting you as a poster in this forum.
You're solid, as a poster around here, and a disagreement will not hinder my opinion of that.
I wish for it to work both ways, and my feeling is that it will.

I'll be honest with you......whenever the subject of JC Chavez arises, I get the flavor from your posts that you have some disdain for him.
....and its just not in Chavez-Whitaker threads, I've seen it in other threads. There's a little bit of that in this thread as well.
Absolutely I'm a huge Chavez fan, and maybe that plays into my feeling.

However, my previous post that got under your skin, was full of examples for you to counter or be able to shoot down my views.
Thats what I was looking for from you.

If you took my first sentence as an insult to you Robbi.....it was'nt meant to insult you.....but more to light a little fire under you so that you would respond and counter the points that I followed with.

C'mon Robbi, this forum is for debate. Lets not take everything said around here so seriously.

Shoot down the points I made, thats what I was looking for from you!:thumbsup