It's hard to say: Holyfield was a crisper puncher I think, but Frazier tended to load up more and get real momentum behind his shots. Holyfield had a harder right hand, I think: that was the punch that did the most one-punch damage to Tyson (nearly knocking Mike down in the 10th round of their first fight) while Frazier's right hand wasn't really a knockout tool at all. In terms of sheer power, I give a narrow edge to Frazier. In terms of consistent power, I give a more substantial edge to Frazier. Am I having a nostalgic hallucination or is Rubber Warrior posting in this thread?
I don't think Carlos Padilla was biased or favored Ali..... What for? As far as Ali tying up his man or grabbing behind the neck, Ali had been doing that ever since his comeback in the early 70s.... Ali was a master boxer / fighter who used every trick in the book to win... However, Ali wasn't a dirty fighter..... Ali was The Greatest..... I know weight isn't everything, but I also know that Ali was at his second heaviest weight in 1975 at 224 1/ 2 pounds.... Ali's previous max was against Buster Mathis in 1971 at 227 pounds.... Of course the heat and humidity, and Frazier, had something to do with Ali's fatigue, and vice versa too......... NOW! Ali did make a small tactical flaw early on with Frazier. Ali decided he wanted to KO Frazier in devastating fashion like George Foreman did back in 1973, so Ali came out flat-footed and punching... However, we all know Ali never had a wicked punch, so Ali would have to wear down Frazier with a volley of punches, if he was gonna score a TKO / KO.... YES! Again, Ali was exhausted after the 10th round, but Frazier wasn't exactly fresh himself.... It was a tough fight, but Ali was beginning to take control... Come the 12, 13, & 14th rds., Joe Frazier was a human punching bag... If Ali was gonna quit after rd 14, it was because he was tired from beating on Joe Frazier....... Eddie Futch did the right thing and stopped the bout.... Ali wins....... MR.BILL:deal P.S. Frazier is insane if he believe's he beat Ali in fight # 2........ Ali boxed Frazier all about the ring for a wide decision win in 1974..... Ali barely had a scratch on him after fight # 2......:bbb
Frazier's left makes up for anything Holyfield had in power, but not in skill. Holyfield had overrall better skills but Frazier had that great left hook, which would have made life a lot easier for Holyfield had he had it.
I think you are putting way too much emphasis on weight and not nearly enough on age in the examples you give: FACT: Ali Frazier 3 was an awesome clash of the titans. Both were past their absolute best, but they still both gave incredible performances, the like of which we rarely see, especially in more modern times. Their will power was inhuman...but their physical conditioning also had to be very, very good to endure what they did for 14 rounds in the heat of Manila. It is foolish to claim otherwise. Now, for Norton in '76 and especially for Berbick in '81 (can't believe you used that as an example with a straight face) Ali was just a shell of what he had been. He may have been "a hard 221" for Norton in '76, but he was nowhere near the fighter that went life and death with Frazier the year before, even if he was a bit heavier in Manila. Frazier 3 was the last fight Ali should have fought. It was the last time we saw Ali, the great warrior. Ali was quite trim against Holmes, looked great, physically....but was empty inside. He had nothing left. It was age that is the key factor in the examples you give...not weight.
In Manila Ali, was in the ring against an extremely hostile and relentless demon of combat in Joe Frazier; who was prepared to ****ing die, rather than let Ali beat him. Say what you want, but Ali was in that ring, not you. Ali still dreams/has nightmares about facing Frazier. If Ali says Manila was the fight where he felt closest to death...I believe him, not you. Your earlier quote about Ali, not Frazier being the one who dished out the pain in Manila was clearly wrong. Look at the photos and see state of Ali after that fight. Read the accounts. Both men gave and received pain in ungodly quantities in Manila. This content is protected Mark Kram's eyewitness report on Ali after the fight. This content is protected Muhammed Ali after Frazier 3. Sounds pretty damned painful to me...
F@#k all the cry-baby bullcrapola....... Ali was age 33, while Frazier was 31..... Jesus..... Neither were truly old farts in the ring...... In truth, Ali never had a hard time in the ring until he met George Chuvalo in '66.... Screw Karl Mildenberger and his horse......... Joe Frazier found out about what it means to be a pro fighter when he met Oscar Bonavena as a novice pro in the late 60s.... That was the first time that I can recall Frazier ever being dropped or hurt in a fight....... By 1975, both guys were still capable of getting their ass' in tip-top shape.... No bull**** excuses, etc..... Leading into the fight in Manila, both Ali and Frazier were a tad heavy at 224 1/2 pounds and at 215 1/2 pounds...... Past their primes? Okay, I'll buy that, but not by much... Christ, "Holy & Foreman" would laugh at you today if they heard that crap..... 33 and 31 yrs of age aint ****...... Even back in '75...... The fight in Manila was classic... Ali had some trouble, because, Frazier was great.... Still, Ali got the better of Joe Frazier and battered him into submission.... Ali wins.... End of story............. MR.BILL
I will say this much: "Ali was more-than-likely getting sick with Parkinson's by 1977 at age 35 when he was facing the likes of Earnie Shavers in New York." I truly believe that...... By 1980, against Lawrence Holmes out in Vegas, Ali only looked good for the photos, etc... However, he was truly sick with the disease by then.... It doesn't matter if it was not properly diagnosed until 1984, Ali by that time had been suffering from the effects for several years before that... MR.BILL
True, sheer power alone doesn't make you a knockout artist, but Frazier REALLY had to crank them on many smaller heavy's, time and time again before they succumbed. THAT does speak to something.
No question. It makes you wonder about those close to him that noticed it but turned a blind eye towards it. In my mind, Ali should have left after Manila....but he wanted "gravy". BTW - At 33, Ali could have easily made 217-218 for Manila. Frazier at 31 could have made 210. Ali was 224 or so for several fights post-Manila. He was coasting....and for Frazier he should have been top-tier. Had he been that 218 for the rubber match, he might have pasted Frazier when he staggered him slightly in the 1st.
Mr Bill, much of what you say is fair enough. Ali and Frazier weren't old per say, but Frazier with his relentless aggressive style soaked up a lot of punishment quickly. Swarmers tend to have shorter careers than other styles. (Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier etc) Ali, well, he was never the same after his layoff, and was taking far more punishment in fights and in sparring than was wise. He should have stopped fighting after Manila. As you rightly say, there were early signs that something was going badly wrong with his health by 1977. Ali and Joe weren't that old, but had taken more punishment than many older fighters in today's game. This is the quote of yours that I take issue with. It makes The Ali/Frazier clashes sound one sided. They were anything but. They were life and death clashes, especially 1 and 3. Ali and Fraziers conditioning in Manila was good enough to give us one of the greatest fights ever seen. It was a close, exciting, brutally painful fight for both fighters, as my previous posts attest to. When he stopped the practically blind Frazier from going out for round 15, Futch said "Sit down, son. No one will forget what you did here tonight" You haven't forgotten what Frazier did, have you?