prime holmes vs prime frazier

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by kolcade4, May 4, 2009.

  1. Chris Warren

    Chris Warren Active Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    964
    Likes Received:
    10
    I think MRBILL has mental issues. Well alot of you here do. You never seem to know what you are talking about. Well at least this time most of you have it right. Ali was better than Holmes at everything and couldnt keep Frazier off him. Holmes struggled with a past his prime Norton, Struggled with Weaver, Almost got knockout by Renaldo Snipes.


    I don't think it would take Frazier 13 rounds to knockout Holmes. I see him doing it in less than 10.
     
  2. round15

    round15 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,370
    Likes Received:
    45
    Mr Bill, you are discrediting Frazier by suggesting Holmes was miles better in terms of overall skill. To a certain degree, I can totally see your viewpoint.

    Nobody is going to mistake the superior, overall boxing skills that Holmes has over Frazier. In fact, I'd argue that Larry Holmes is almost in a class of his own when it comes to overall boxing skills and ring generalship. His jab alone speaks for itself. Only Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis and Ali can compare to Holmes in terms of overall boxing ability and hand speed.

    What is true about Frazier though is that he had underrated boxing skills. The man couldn't open up his left hand totally straight due to a childhood accident, breaking his arm in the process. This didn't prevent him from using an effective jab to set up his hooks to either side of the body. Joe is certainly not known for having a great jab like Holmes, but it's not like it was absent in his arsenal. Frazier's right hand is another subject of discussion that people on this forum are quick to conclude that it was a "non-punch" in his career which is totally wrong. Frazier could box and use his right hand but he's not known for it. Still, for those who have lingering doubts about Frazier's right hand, ask Bugner, Quarry, Ali and Chuvalo about Frazier's right hand.

    Too many people use the Foreman fight as the basis of their arguments when discussing Joe Frazier. Sure, I'd bet on almost any heavyweight champion or contender to KO the 1973 version of Frazier, just like George did, but not as quick. However, put any other heavyweight in the ring with Frazier on March 08, 1971 and my bet is that none of them make it to 10th round, including Foreman. Foreman, Liston, and perhaps Earnie Shavers are the only fighters that could put the FOTC conditioned Frazier on the canvas but they'd all be very hard pressed to stop him.

    Larry Holmes would probably do his best against the post 1975 Manilla Frazier and maybe stops Joe in the later rounds. As for a prime vs prime matchup, Frazier would stop Holmes well inside the 15 round distance.
     
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    37,088
    Likes Received:
    3,779
    Ezzard Charles Jersey Joe Walcott and Jack Johnson too
     
  4. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Messages:
    5,065
    Likes Received:
    6,949
    I think a prime Holmes could eke out a decision win over Frazier...but I wouldn't be shocked if it went the other way, due to the style matchup.
     
  5. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,641
    Likes Received:
    735
    I would take Frazier in a competitive decision.
     
  6. kolcade4

    kolcade4 Keep Punchin' Full Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    5
    i honestly must admire your love for larry, this guy can do no wrong. i can see why u love him dearly, larry was the energizer bunny, he held his oxygen well, better than anybody i have seen, larrys biggest weakness was the bomb. aka nick wells , mike tyson. i honestly know larry could have given tyson problems during his peak.
     
  7. kolcade4

    kolcade4 Keep Punchin' Full Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,592
    Likes Received:
    5
    larry wants to get you you out of those early rounds and take you into unchartered later round waters without a preserver, that is when larry did his best work. he lacked power for more early rd ko's .
     
  8. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    21,116
    Likes Received:
    119
    Larry Holmes did it all as a champion.... Plus, he lasted a hell of a lot longer than Frazier as well......... Frazier was great, but, it was for a short time......

    Larry Holmes bigger, taller, stronger. faster & more skilled dices up Frazier for either a lopsided win or a late rd. TKO..........

    Holmes doesn't get KO'd..... Nobody KO's a prime Holmes.......... Holmes was KO'd by Tyson at age 38 and rusty as a nail......... That gets tossed out the window....

    As for "Weaver & Norton," they might NOT be the overall pressure machine that Frazier boy was, but they were just as strong / stronger and more muscular with good power than Joe Frazier.....

    Weaver had losses on his record because of **** poor management.... Still his record is deceiving; he could fight / punch........ Weaver was no *****.......

    We need NOT go into Kenny Norton...... Norton was a fine fighter who was as strong as a Buffalo.....

    I'm sorry, but Larry Holmes from 1979 to 1982 handles Joe Frazier of 1969 / '71..... Holmes sweet Holmes........

    MR.BILL
     
  9. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    21,116
    Likes Received:
    119
    1. Ali
    2. Holmes
    3. Johnson
    4. Louis
    5. Foreman / Lewis (Tie)

    MR.BILL
     
  10. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    21,116
    Likes Received:
    119
    What kills me is, lotsa' of guys pick Holmes to beat Joe Louis on the other thread, and then they claim Frazier here would hammer Holmes......:patsch

    Styles make fights....:good

    But Louis was much better with both hands than Frazier ever was.... Still, perhaps Frazier could chase Louis outta the ring with pressure.?.?:huh

    Hell if I know....:-:)blood

    Note:

    I also think Holmes could beat Louis in a time machine....:hey

    MR.BILL:bbb:admin
     
  11. round15

    round15 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,370
    Likes Received:
    45
    I highly doubt that Holmes would handle prime Frazier. Definitely a good fight Mr Bill, but I wouldn't right off Frazier as an easy victory for Holmes.

    Holmes was nowhere near as fast as Ali, but I will agree that Larry was a better overall boxer than Ali. Ali broke many textbook rules because of his reflexes and didn't always throw proper punches.

    With that being said about speed and reflexes, Frazier would catch the slower footed Holmes and give him big trouble to the body. Holmes wouldn't be able to handle the pressure and pace of prime Joe Frazier.
     
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2008
    Messages:
    28,695
    Likes Received:
    14,073
    Yeah, that's why some of us have picked Holmes over Louis but not over Frazier. Louis had trouble with boxers, Joe ate them for breakfast. Jones, Machen, Mathis, Foster and Ellis should be a comparable bunch to Farr, Pastor, Conn and Schmeling, but whereas Louis struggled somewhat with his bunch Joe cheved his up before spitting them out.
     
  13. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    21,116
    Likes Received:
    119
    Christopher,

    I have more issues' than any package deal Playboy magazine has to offer.....
    :deal:thumbsup

    MR.BILL:bbb
     
  14. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    Messages:
    21,116
    Likes Received:
    119
    I'm not saying Frazier would be easy for Holmes.....:-( And, I think Holmes from '77 to '82 was pretty goddamn fast / quick....:hey

    MR.BILL:bbb
     
  15. leverage

    leverage Active Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,372
    Likes Received:
    16
    Frazier by late round tko. frazier practically forced his opponents to fight him with his intense pressure. Holmes, while a good puncher, had nothing to stop frazier with and on top of that he's never faced anyone with fraziers determination.

    It would be a helluva fight with holmes taking the early rounds and frazier shiftting into full gear by the 6th. This is where frazier would begin to take over, making the fight even after 12. Holmes by this time is almost completely out of gas and frazier is getting stronger, hammering holmes with hooks to the body and head. In the 14th round a completely stationary holmes is hurt and defenseless and the ref stops one of the greatest fights in the history of the division.