Primo Carnera's ability

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by catchwtboxing, Aug 25, 2018.

  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The point is that if we don't have consensus on the matter, then there is no point in saying that "the film shows that he was not very good", as if no further qualification was needed.

    Clearly it hasn't made the case!
     
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  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The consensus is he wasn't very good, the minority, you 3, think otherwise.
     
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Google "Argument ad populum."
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't have to ,I know the definition of consensus.
     
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Also we are about the worst possible combination of three people, to have on the opposing side.
     
  6. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    All doing something once reveals is the mere physical ability to do something. If that’s what you mean then that seems pretty trivial but ok, I guess. But demonstrating actual boxing skill and technical proficiency requires a lot more than that. It’s about doing (and avoiding) certain things fairly consistently and intelligently.
     
  7. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    The most reassuring combination, actually (no offense to those guys—I’m sure they feel the same way about me).
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't understand this comment.
     
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    If I say that McVea knows how to juggle, and I produce film of him juggling, you can't undo it by producing film of him not juggling.

    He have at least proved that he has the capability, and will likely use it if he perceives it to be to his advantage.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Without singing out praises unduly, you have one person who is a good archivist, one who is very good with film, and one who is a good debater.

    That makes us a dangerous combination.
     
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  11. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Have you ever been in a boxing gym where novices were trying to learn how to move, avoid punches, and throw punches properly? Some of them look brilliant for a few seconds at a time, only to lapse into bad form and bad habits more often than not. And even the crudest pro boxers are sometimes able to slip punches, land good looking combinations, snap out a hard jab, or use their feet advantageously. Would be ridiculous to assume that they’re therefore technically proficient boxers who’ve mastered the technique and can replicate it whenever it seems advantageous. Especially if you’ve seen many counter examples that raise questions about their ability to do so, as in the case of Carnera.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
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  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I don't view you as dangerous .Care to identify who is who? It isn't that apparent.
     
  13. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don’t think it was that clear. He was pushed to the brink by sub-200lb’ers.

    The second Carnera/Levinsky bout was postponed for ten days because Kingfish had been diagnosed with the flu. Two weeks after his recovery he was pushing a guy, who outweighs him by over 60lbs, to the ropes. This is a guy who would have been the smaller man going in to most cruiserweight contests, today.

    Lasky would not be ranked for another two years. With only 20 bouts under his belt and giving away 78lbs, he pushed Carnera over the distance for a Newspaper Decision.


    I neither really rate Neusel, nor was he ranked, by the time Primo elbowed him in the eye to for a stoppage.



    I am yet to find a source (or sources), in which the commentator(s) comprehensively and convincingly break down the skills of Carnera. Benny Leonard’s “marvellous defense” article is not going to cut it. That was a promo piece and one I have no doubt left a few red faces, after Baer cruised his way to beating Carnera.



    That really depends on how weak the division is and what you define as “depth” to one’s game.



    What evidence have you seen to help you come to the conclusion that Carnera both improved, as a boxer, and changed his style after Gains and Poreda?

    When did Carnera hit his Prime then, given there were only eleven months between Poreda and Sharkey?



    I wouldn’t know. I’ve not seen many Super Heavyweight vs Cruiserweight contests, of late.




    I don’t think too much care needs to be made of its interpretation and certainly not of Tunney’s thoughts. Baer was never really stretched in any way, during the bout, and confidently smashed Carnera all over the shop. Again, we can praise Carnera for the left jab that he demonstrates for a while here (although he really asked for the counter when throwing it), but he was unable to put anything substantial together, off the jab; unable to make headway, even when Baer was taking his foot off the gas.

    His exposure to the right is a massive gap in his defense. It was almost as if he didn’t see them coming, even when he was looking directly at his opponent.

    I do think one has to acknowledge the injury, even though accounts vary as to the specifics. I would hazard a guess that, whatever it was affecting Carnera’s ankle, it began in round 8, but it will remain difficult to establish exactly when; how severe it was and to what extent it had an impact.

    Carnera showed a lot of heart and I don’t think anybody would say otherwise. I just think the limits of his ability became clear in bouts with slightly bigger heavies, who were able to deliver power and skills of their own.
     
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  14. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I find it odd that, if taken at face value (forgetting the seemingly exaggerated KO), Sharkey seems to have been one punched KO'd as if he was shot out of a cannon. Which is odd considering Primo wasn't able to regularly produce similar one shot results to people far inferior to Sharkey in every way.
     
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  15. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Excellent final two sentences. Bullseye.