Problems I had with Frazier vs Foreman I

There is no logical argument against this synopsis , close's the debate . keep well.

 

Frazier never at any time "cleaned out the division".As an up and coming ranked challenger ,and champion he missed the following ranked contenders.
Bugner
Bodell
Cooper
Urtain
Garcia
M Foster
Folley
Norton
Lyle
Lewis
Martin
Corletti
Terrell
Peralta
A Jones
Persol
Liston

 

I think Mercante actually warned Foreman twice, the first time in rd 1 perhaps after the first KD and then in rd 2 after Frazier had already been down at least 3 times and no George still didn’t desist.

If the shoving and spinning abated it was only by the time sufficiently immobilised for George to completely tee off.

Refs will sometimes allow an illegality a few times before first warning. Mercante warned him so 1) it was apparently illegal and 2) we know George had already committed the illegality a number of times before the first warning and persisted with it even after the second warning.

His so called manipulation also involved holding Joe behind the neck which I believe is illegal.

I think the shoving, grabbing and spinning looked blatant because it was blatant, not because Foreman lacked finesse in execution as compared to other fighters. It wasn’t as if Frazier was holding or loitering in a clinch. He was being shoved stone cold, Foreman reaching out for him at times and pushing Joe particularly after occasions when Joe actively worked his way in close after landing a decent shot. It did make Foreman’s job that much easier and by way of the ref’s own admonishment, it was illegal but the ref only warned him for it a couple of times.

In the rematch both guys modified their game. Joe used more lateral movement and tried to work off the ropes a bit like Ali did in Zaire. Foreman, under Clancy, was better metered, focusing on and landing cleaner, less clubbing like punches, initially it seemed he had shelved the shove tactic. However, as the fight progressed, with Frazier working in and landing some nice shots, the pushing and spinning crept back into George’s game and af some point ref Harold Valans warned him for holding Joe behind the neck and spinning him. At that point, the commentary noted that issues re the tactic were raised prior to the fight, so Joe’s team clearly viewed it as an illegal tactic.

Anyway, it’s just a fair observation whether it would ultimately see a different result or not. It’s not a persecution of Foreman, suffice to say, Ali’s smothering of Joe in Superfight II was very bad also, Ali didn’t have the punch to see Joe off, so the punch and clutch strategy was protracted over 12 rds without a single deduction despite repeated warnings by Perez. As such, Ali also had that much of an easier time with Joe.

 

This point becomes when 1 ) Frazer allows Foreman to manhandle him ( others Foreman's size could have success ) 2 ) Frazier's power level could hurt Foremen, 3 ) He was down multiple times in less than two rounds. Blaming the ref for Frazier's defeat dosen't hold much water.

 

Boxing has nothing to do with logic.

 

Yes he did. There's always going to be new fighters coming into the top 10. You can name names of boxers. According to your logic no fighter ever cleaned out a division.

I was referring to when he entered his prime circa 1967-71. Frazier wrecked the division and left no doubt who the creme of the crop was. Did he literally beat every single heavyweight with a boxing license? No he didn't .

 

Joe Frazier did.

 

No he just **** on deserving contenders whilst defending against two journeyman,in doing so he cheapened the title and his reign.
Frazier's legacy relies on one great win over a comebacking Ali and 2 good wins over Quarry, and Eliis.

 

@roughdiamond is right it is you Mcvey I lurked and watched @dempsey1234 bulldoze you countless times.

 

Nope he was kept away from several punchers ,Liston,Lyle,Garcia,Foster Urtain,and Norton, punchers ranked when he was either a top contender or champion.Frazier won the title when he beat Ellis,before that he was largely meeting unranked guys like Ziggy and Mathis. Durham nearly slipped up when he matched Joe tough against Oscar he did not make that mistake again.Im referring to ranked contenders he missed, not holders of boxing licences.Who cleared out the division?Liston and Ali are two examples.

Nope ,you can quit "lurking".I'm not familiar with you, were you somebody equally inept under a previous name?
Fact for 2 years Frazier did not defend his crown against a contender ranked in the top 20.

 

1967
2.Spencer
7.Patterson
9.Mildenberger
10 .Terrell
1968
5.Liston*
7.Martin"
9. Lewis
10.Patterson

1969
4.Martin*
5. Foster*
8.Jones*
9.Cooper
10.Peralta

1970
5.Foster*
6. Cooper
8.Liston*
9.Urtain*
10.Garcia*
1971
5.Foster*
7.Patterson
8.Garcia*
Asterisks denote punchers.
Note the names that are regularly ranked, these aren't "new fighters," just momentarily getting a rating,they are established contenders.Frazier was a great fighter ,but to state ,as you did that he cleaned out the division is untrue.

 

It's you Mcvey! When's the next Jack Johnson thread?

 

Fascinating character,but a boring fighter,there are loads more exciting guys to discuss who lit up the boxing scene .

 

Frazier fought Bonavena again in a rematch this time without getting dropped, also he was fighting for a title against Mathis who at the time was also undefeated.

 

And, having never beaten a rated fighter, or even a reasonably good one,unranked.