Question for those who were around in the 70's...

It's mainly the losses to Foreman that affect Frazier's legacy, not the ones to Ali.

 

No, i have not. I will look into it, thanks. :good

 

I've got the full interview of this and Ali explains about the white devils issue. He doesn't think all whites are devils but it was easier to class everyone the same in that broader term and explained it in this way - if you had 10,000 snakes outside, 9,000 were harmless and 1,000 were rattle snakes that would kill yer - well would invite all 10,000 into your home not knowing which 1,000 were there intending to kill you i.e. devils. So all would stay outside your home.

Unfortunately i couldn't find that clip on utube but i found this one in that same interview about how Ali has white in him LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-kKKXB2_ZI

 

Being English ,I probably viewed it differently to the Yanks ,but I felt Ali was entitled to his beliefs. I don't recall any other prominent sportsmen being inducted.I was rooting for Ali to win ,it was a great fight ,maybe the grwatest heavyweight fight,along with Manila,in the FOTC,Frazier took his game to an unbeleivable level,as Ali said ,"WHATEVER THE PRICE, HE WILL PAY IT".Frazier deserved the verdict ,but both men covered themselves with glory,and left some of themselves in the MSG ring that night,Frazier was never quite the same ,imo,but he gave us a fantastic demonstration of indomitable will,and triumphed over a more talented adversary,with the readiness to accept unbeleivable punishment and still come forward,incessantly throwing those big hooks .One made the other,as Ali said ,"I COULDNT BE WHAT I AM WITHOUT HIM, HE COULDNT BE WHAT HE IS WITHOUT ME ".Dempsey /Tunney,Louis /Schmeling,and more indelibly,Ali /Frazier.

 

INteresting question. IT comes down to your age at the time of the drafting and when you were called. Ali was called and refused to go in ... that was why it became such an issue ...

 

I wonder to what extent politics played a part in Ali's induction,being as how he was "reclassified",after he came out as a Muslim.

 

When I was a teenager, the anticipation & Buildup for Leonard-Hearns I was incredible! The hugely popular Sugar Ray Leonard, Olympic Gold medal winner, Was in essence the lighter weight Muhamad Ali. Leonard had just conquered Roberto Duran. Thomas Hearns on the other hand was wreaking a path of destruction through the Welterweight Division. & for all intense & purposes appeared indestructable. The fight itself was great, with many changes in momentum from one fighter to the other. With a very dramatic finish. It very much did live up to the hype surrounding the fight.

 

Communism? What's that? Times have changed, but not human nature. Those that can still abuse those that can't.

 

Communism is alive & Well... Just Look at the Beijing Olympics, Don't let the Pretty flowers & Lightshow fool you, China are still Hardcore Communists. Tianenmen Square was not that long ago...

 

Of course it is. But it's not the threat it was or never was; at this point we'll never know which, unless we have to butt heads with that awakened giant. Fidel Castro's all but dead, the Soviet Union is non-existent, but we can still count North Korea and by the way, ALL of Vietnam to look to as boogie-men or parts of the Axis of Evil when we need to find a villain.

 

"an embarrassment to the Nixon administration"

Ali was drafted and stripped of his title under the Johnson administration. By the time Nixon became president, the Ali issue was making its way to the Supreme Court.

As for the original question, Ali was unpopular long before he announced he was a Muslim or refused induction. Sonny Liston was the sentimental favorite in his first fight with Ali. Ali was just so much different than other sports stars had been. Few openly bragged. Fewer trashed opponents. He demanded to be the center of attention at all times. This type of egoism would have earlier been mocked as immature. My take would be that the draft issue probably helped his popularity as it made him an icon of the anti-war movement.

As for Frazier, someone made the good point that we have no idea what Joe thought of Vietnam.

This won't mean anything to non-Americans, but there was a similar split, although not as intense, over the gridiron star Joe Namath who was viewed as the hero of the counterculture in contrast to older icons such as Johnny Unitas and Bart Starr. Pretty much nonsense in retrospect.

 

You're right about my LBJ (Nixon) administration misspeak; I actually realized it after I posted. In the same post of mine you quoted I did make reference to the fact that we didn't know what Frazier thought of Vietnam, and I still don't.

I remember the Namath thing, but that Joe wasn't vocal about his views on the war either or was he? Maybe you remember. He did have the long hair, and he also had the audacity to make a famous prediction that he lived up to, when his Jets defeated the team of that other Pittsburgh quarterback, Johnny U.

And yes, Ali was unpopular well before that. It started as early as the first Liston fight. I was a damn near baby at that time, but I do remember the uproar, especially coming from the old guard of boxing who were offended by his big mouth. I think you make a good point that Ali became even more popular by his refusal of the draft; it gave at least one half of the country a reason to get behind him. But he paid the price for it, no?

 

Yes the threat of Communism seems to have waned. Now we have the issue of these two bit Dictators to spill more American Blood... (Saddam Hussien, Osama Bin Laden, Kadafi,Warlords, Ect...)

 

All bad guys, I would agree. But innocent blood spilled, American or otherwise is hard to justify.

 

But Ali's stance was not on his opposition to the war, or the racial injustices of the Black man in America at the time. His refusal to be inducted into the Army was based totally on Religion. He stated his religious beliefs prevented him from going into war. as a consiencious objector. Which is fine, Ali should be applauded for sticking up for his religious beliefs.