I don't see that at all, Clay missed most of his punches in the 4th, he was moving well, and throwing fast shots but missing clearly most of the time. The most solid punch of the round was definite Liston's, snapped Clay's head back, in fact it was more a two-punch combo to Clay's head, right-left.
Do you score body shots? I have no doubt Clay won the 3rd but Liston made it competitive with his aggression, landed a lot of punches to the body and even jabs and a good uppercut to the face.
That was all he landed, while Clay actually did land most of those jabs and added in a good right, I think, towards the end.
He landed some hald shots in the clinches, if that's what you mean (and maybe some body shots Ali moved away from), and I do take those into account but not by very much. I also take into account the huge number of punches he missed badly.
He lost the round clear. But he made it two-sided. He clearly had Clay under pressure and was mauling him back, nowhere near enough to even up the round, but it showed he was in the fight, not one-sided. The only one-sided round in the whole fight was the 6th.
Don't agree, Out of curiosity, you who think the fight was fixed, why do you think that Liston made such a good go of it as you see it?
I thnk it was one-sided in terms who actually did that the damage. But you're right that Liston was very aggressive in the second half and really had a go. Why do you think that was, since you believe it was a fix?
I mostly agree, but I do see Clay as dominating more than a little before that. He at least made Sonny look real bad in most rounds. That said, to my eyes there's no question Liston more than deserved to be in that ring, and proved it with some very ugly shots, both head and body. I wish his arm hadn't gotten so messed up...but I think he was pulling a bit of a No Mas deal, there. I think that was part of it. He might have had too much pride to get shown up like he did in the 6th. It's possible he sensed a stoppage coming in the next round, and I could see things orbiting around there.
I think the fight is highly suspect, probably fixed. Liston was just doing what he was supposed to do. He could have gone down in the first round from a light punch, i suppose, but no one would believe that
The first fight? Maybe...I don't know, Clay got hit pretty hard... I have to respectfully disagree. To me the only cheat there was the possibility that Liston put that stuff in Clay's eyes on purpose.
Exerting himself trying to land big blows is not doing what you're supposed to do in a fix. I don't belive anyone who watches that fight, especially the third, truly believes Liston isn't going for it. It's just a bit ridicolous to say he didn't.
Clay looked better throughout the entire fight, to me. He looked brilliant. He looked fresh, even when he was under pressure he looked like he would ride easily it out and Liston looked tired and sluggish throughout. Clay was throwing fast and cutting blows, Liston was pushing with his. But there's a difference between looking great and actually bagging the rounds. And you really have to score the punches, and outwork the opponent throughout to dominate the rounds. I didn't see that from either man until the 6th.
I think you have grounds here. Maybe I'm seeing more flush-landing Liston shots throughout the fight than you are.
You're saying it looks at least a bit real, I think. Which is exactly what I'd want a fighter to make it, if I wanted him to throw it. You also seem to say Liston landed very very little of consequence in the whole fight. But criticising him for throwing big punches. Without a doubt Liston wasn't going to allow Clay to have his way in the 3rd. It's suspicious that he surrendered so rapidly in the 6th though. He just bowed out. It's not something worth arguing about. I stated my scorecard. That can be debated. I think Liston won 3 rounds, but 4-2 to Clay is reasonable too. But i don't see how the issue of whether it was fixed or not can be resolved. It's not conclusive either way. It clearly wasn't a bad fix (like the 2nd fight, for example), but wasn't a satisfactory ending either. It has left question marks.