rocky marciano vs larry holmes

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by bbox71, Aug 31, 2019.


  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Ok smart guy, now do the average for the number of rounds it took him to stop his best opponents. Guys like Walcott, Charles, Moore, lastarza, Savold, Layne, cokkel, Louis, etc. The opponents who actually matter. I'm no math genius but I'm quite confident the average wouldn't be 4.9 rounds.

    Even Joe Frazier had lots of early round kos over bums. Anyone can have a good average when fighting tomato cans, that's why no one takes Lamar Clark seriously. Hence why when i did my comparisons to some of rocky's contemporaries of his era, I picked opponents who were worth a damn or at least had names/journeymen status. I was completely fair and did the same for Tyson, Louis, Foreman, Lennox, etc.

    This is classic shifting of the goal posts. Has nothing to do with the fact rocky took longer than fighters of his own era to stop worse versions of the same guys.

    As for the fouls, yes they matter when discussing punching "power" because it affects the outcome. The lastarza fight might have gone the distance and become a decision win for lastarza had rocky not done so many flagrant fouls (he was up on the scorecards going into the 6th). Rocky might not have gotten the stoppage in the first place. It wasnt like he just had 1 ittsy bitsy foul, he did tons of them for many rounds and even had a point deducted. That cannot be ignored. Hitting Walcott and cokkel when they were already down may or may not have helped rocky get those KO's. We won't know for sure but we know it cant just be overlooked.
    No one seems to want to mention that walcott obviously quit and was a broken, shopworn fighter the 2nd time. We had a thread about it last week

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  2. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Active Member Full Member

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    Fyi it was 6 rounds for his best opponents. And how in the world am I shifting the goal post? You’re DEFLECTING! I told u only six men have ended fights quicker in their careers SIX. And you have zero response to it other then to deflect. Just admit you’re wrong and move on. Because if Marciano didn’t have power no one did.
     
  3. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Active Member Full Member

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    And Walcott wasn’t fouled please. He was leaning on the ropes already knocked out. We also didn’t get to watch the first Lastarza fight to gauge how bad he may have been fouled. I suppose we can start taking away Ws from Ali, Liston, Holyfield, Tyson, Dempsey, Walcott exc all of whom have been called dirty and fouled at some points in their careers
     
  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Again im not talking about his aversge for bums. Just his best opponents. Otherwise we would br praising Lamar Clark.

    Walcott 13 Moore 9, cokkel 9, Louis 8, Charles 8, lastarza 11, Savold 6 layne 6

    8.7 rounds

    You also seem to keep missing my main point: most of these men were relatively easy to stop. Other than louis and lastarza, 6/8 of his best opponents were stopped multiple times and were often stopped by guys who didn't have a lot of power (and again they did so fsster than rocky did).

    ^it only gets WORSE if you include all 49 bouts. You will tons and tons of opponents with crappy records who got knocked out silly many times before and after rocky faced them.

    Not once did i say rocky didnt have power, i said his power was overrated because of his poor opposition and that he was a sloppy finisher.
    The fouls are well documented in The lastarza fight and Rocky even lost a point. These are facts, you are in denial.

    Walcott was on the ground, his arm was the only thing keeping hin up when rocky nailed him again.

    He hit cokkel when he was down and fouled Charles multiple times. These weren't isolated incidents.
     
  5. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Active Member Full Member

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    Cmon with the Walcott thing. He obviously pulled it mostly when he realized he was out on the ropes. Hardly a foul. As for the other fights you clearly are cherry picking. Leaving out Walcott first round KO Matthews second round KO Reynolds third round KO Buonvino second round KO Schkor sixth round KO etc. some were ranked others solid journey men and of course the better competition the longer it should take to knock them out...otherwise they wouldn’t be better. I’ve watched that Lastarza fight a hundred times the fouls meant nothing in the outcome of the fight and Lastarza openly admitted Marciano was a thousand times better then when they had previously met.
     
  6. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Active Member Full Member

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    And if Rocky’s feats were so easy and over hyped how come NO ONE in the era was able to duplicate it or even come remotely close to it? I don’t think he’s a top five hitter ever but I would def put him in the top ten. And he was a volume punched and a sloppy one but he possessed one punch KO power
     
  7. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

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    While we're definitely not talking about Lewis, Holmes is still much bigger than Marciano and bigger than his average opponent.
    I know it did seem like that but I definitely don't think that. Marciano was a great pressure fighter but one 25lbs lighter than someone and still picking them to win is ridiculous.
    It'd be ridiculous of I picked Mickey Walker to beat Micheal Spinks. And it is equally ridiculous to pick Rocky Marciano to stop Larry Holmes.
    Against Bonavena, you mean? I agree that he was clearly a lesser fight than Joe but he's a good puncher. I'd put him on the level of Moore at HW. A tier below Walcott tho.
    Pressure is not an advantage when your walking into Holmes's jab for 15 rounds and have thin skin. Not to mention the difference in size.
    I refer you to the Ezzard Charles fight.

    It ruined him, even further and he lost. But 1980 Holmes was a cut above 54 Ezzard Charles, probably several. He'd also beat a prime Ezzard Charles imo.
     
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  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Cherry picking? If i get the averages for the 8 best kos for Tyson, Louis, Foreman, wilder, Joshua, tua, Liston, Lennox, etc theyd all be better than rocky. Lmao you are in denial!

    The fouls didnt affect lastarza? Hitting Walcott and cokkel while they were down didnt affect the outcome? Lol! You've obviously never been head butt or hit in the nuts and you've clearly never boxed if you're gonna say something so ignorant!

    Just stop already this is just comedy at tjis point.
    No one duplicated it because no one had such a carefully managed career fighting bums and shopworn old versions of fighters who had been stopped multiple times. You're clearly missing or refusing to get my point about rocky taking longer to stop worse versions of the same fighter. If he had such legendary "one punch" ko power even if he were sloppy he should have gotten it done faster than guys who had 18-24% ko ratios! The weaker guys, for the 5th time, also faced younger less shopworn out versions of the same opponents! What part of this is so difficult to grasp?
     
  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There is next to nothing between him and Joe Louis, and he is smaller than guys like Shkor.

    Bottom line, Holmes is not going to win this on body weight or power.
     
  10. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

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    There's a good 10lbs difference, with a good couple inches in height and reach.

    And naming a couple fighters is not his average opponent.
    Holmes doesn't need to win this on body size or power.
     
  11. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Here I must respectfully disagree.

    There is a long history of 190lb pressure fighters, troubling 210lb technicians.

    Mickey Walker did beat champions who were ans big as Michael Spinks, and contenders who were significantly bigger!
    Am I right in saying that he was down against Scrap Iron Johnson?

    If so then that might tip the chin argument to Marciano.
    It is in the nature of being a pressure fighter, that you have to take a lot of jabs.

    You slip them if you can, but sometimes you won't.

    One way or another, Marciano would get inside, and pour misery into Holmes's body!
    Every great puncher in history, got taken the distance at some point.

    That doesn't mean that they cant sop anybody better then the man who took them the distance.

    By that logic Joe Louis could not stop anybody better than Arturo Godoy, and Joe Frazier could not stop anybody better than Scrap Iron Johnson!
     
  12. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Holmes weighed less when he fought Norton, than Louis weighed when he fought Marciano.

    There is about an inch difference in height.

    Holmes has a significant reach advantage, but that would not translate into a huge difference in striking distance.

    Louis probably hit harder, even at the age he was then.
     
  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

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    Fair play, you got me on the weight. For imo Holmes's best performance (Ali) he was a couple pounds lighter than Louis was. Holmes's jab would definitely land more frequently than Louis's did. It was also levels better than Louis had at that point.

    But either way that's like 2 opponents out of 49, and one isn't actually bigger. Just heavier.
     
  14. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Active Member Full Member

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    If you got the 8 best KOs of the men you named they would be good as they are great punchers. What on earth does that even mean when saying Marciano doesn’t have one punch power? You names some of the best HW punchers ever and you can compare Rocky’s record with all but Liston and Foreman. You’re in denial because you refuse to look at the numbers and you’re purposefully cherry picking. You don’t like to mention that Lastarza was never stopped before or Layne till they faced Rocky. You don’t like to admit his KO percentage rate or the extremely quick rate at which he did it. You make up lies like he was carefully managed. That’s BS! He wasn’t managed at all his first ten fights or so. Who did Marciano avoid in his career that he was so carefully managed? He actually faced the ones unlike Holmes or today’s fighters. I’ve also been in my fair share of fights and sparring. Seasoned pros always look for edge. You name them they’ve thrown elbows, head butt inside, step on feet, hold, etc. You don’t mention in walcott one Marciano was blinded half the fights wbich he blamed Walcott’s corner for (was possibly his own corner messing up). You don’t mention Rocky’s nose was cut by an elbow in EC 2. You can see Walcott holding and punching the first round before the knock down. Pros use edges get over it. The second shot on walcott as he was stuck on the ropes did nothing walcott was out cold and if u look at it from his view Walcott may not have seemed out but he clearly pulled his punch at the last second how you can claim otherwise is such a fairy tale. I wish people like you would break down these other fights like u do Rocky. Foreman would never of beat joe Frazier if he didn’t illegally push off every time right? Ali wouldn’t have beat terrell if be didn’t gauge his eyes. Holyfield never would have beat Tyson if he didn’t head butt right?
     
  15. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I would see the issue if we were matching Marciano against say Wladamir Klitschko, but this is basically known territory on the size issue!
     


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