Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Liston was IMO one of the more dangerous and talented heavyweight champs. However..........a 185-190+ Marciano was not that easy to hit for even fast fighters his ability to avoid punches is uncanny the ones he did take added to the legend of a man whos will to win would not be denied. What I see is Rocky getting through the first few rounds getting warmed up and like he did in the 6th round vs Archie Moore throwing over 100 hard bad intentioned punches and coming out the next round fresh as a daisy.

 

His defense, while formerly underrated, is not vastly overrated.

He was there to be hit and hit often. Even an ancient, mummified, glacial Louis puffed his face up badly. Let's not pretend he was the heavyweight Willy Pep.

 

I should have finished my thought, he was no will o the wisp but if he got hit as hard and as often as many seemed to think he was a 187 lb Marciano more than likely would have been stopped at least once and dropped more than twice. I watched an interesting video someone had made that showed Marciano avoiding and blocking punches in slow motion. I appreciated his subtle ability after gaining that glimpse of maybe he was a little better than I had thought. Then I watched every video(I could find) of his fights and noticed how much he blocked and because of his style how few he actually took flush I was suprised. His crouching style was no accident and watching videos of fighters trying to tee off on him and missing and getting countered his akwardness made sense. Marciano didn't exactly have a rythum that could be timed and the way he moved was hard to connect because he crouched side to side and down and back drawing his opponents to reach for him. This was perfect for a fighter who liked to fight from underneath a fighters defense with short powerful arms. No Seamus I am not comparing Marciano to a fleet footed defensive wizard but he deserves more credit for his akwardness being less of his lack of ability to fight conventional but more a deliberate tactic to temp fighters into his strength. Now here is the interesting piece with Liston...his reach vs Rockies crouching tactic.

 

Good points.

 

Shitty points.

I have seen the same video. It covers 3 minutes of Rocky's career.

He was not a facefirst attacker but he was also limited in his evasiveness. Even his best techniques meant he was getting hit somewhere.

All this equates to one thing primarily... a short career at the top.

 

How long was Liston at the top?

1960-64?

Aside from Patterson, Ernie Terrell beat the same men.

 

:good fair and accurate.

 

The underlined may be true, but Machen ,and Folley would have given the ancient Moore plenty of trouble .

Then again, I don't see Don ****ell going 9 rds with Liston.

 

Marciano's opponents weren't exactly blowing away the likes of Rex Layne and Nino Valdes so I don't see any reason to think they'd have done better against Floyd Patterson, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen or Cleveland Williams, all of whom had better, longer careers at the top of the heavyweight division.

 

A more relevant question might be how long could Liston have been at the top, if he had been given a title shot instead of the likes of Brian London? I would say from 1959 possibly 58 .That would have given him a 6 years reign, only stopped by the consensus no1 heavy of all time in 1964.

If Liston had met the Archie Moore that Patterson did I think he would have kod him, kod Floyd as he did, and kod Johannson, who turned down $1000,000 to fight him. Kayoes over Archie and Ingo would flesh out his resume somewhat Add them to the two that Patterson avoided as champ Machen and Folley, plus 2 ko's over Williams ,who would have been favoured to beat Harris , London ,Jackson , Rademacher, and McNeeley and the sheet looks very good.

 

I don't see whitehurst lasting 20 rounds with Marciano.

 

Fair point. Not many champions are able to line up all the best availible, or most of the availible talent during their primes. Louis and Tyson being exceptions. Maybe Liston could have achieved that run. We have to assume Sonny could fare as well as Patterson against those guys but to be certain would be assuming too much since a lot of fighters (patterson included) fared better against Ali than Liston did. Machen fared better against Liston than he did against ingo. Whitehurst fared better against Liston than he did against Archie Moore. There are a lot of assumptions to make in order to grant Liston a solid, comparable resume to Marciano. Other champions have deeper resumes without relying on assumptions.

It is a great pity ingo never fought Ali or Liston. He was either a special talent for a very short time or he and Floyd ruined each other as elite fighters. I can't decide.

Patterson did not avoid machen or folley as #1 and #2 they drew their eliminator then Floyd took #3 Harris. Later Foley blew his shot losing to Cooper only they chose London over Cooper. Machen was in line but lost out to ingo who brutaly took him apart inside of one round. Ingo forced an automatic shot right there. Sonny had not rounded up enough of an automatic shot until 1960.

 

Liston was comptetitive with Ali in their first fight, more so than Floyd imo. Referee Mercante gave Floyd just one rd in the second Ali fight. I think D'Amato avoided both Machen and Folley.

Floyd took Harris who Liston kod in 1 rd dropping him3 times.Harris went into the 12 th with Floyd. Liston would have rightly been favourite over any of Floyd's challengers and we both know it.

Ingo was contracted to fight Machen in a return but he always refused.

Johannson does not have enough names on his resume to put him in the pantheon of greatness. I believe his ko of Machen flatters him.

 

Ted Lowry?

 

Johnny Summerlin? Neil welch?

An unrated Howard king lasted 8 long rounds with Liston during Sonnys 1960 prime even though king had won just once in his last 10. Chuvalo already knocked king out in 2. And Marciano gets slated for going 9 rounds with winning streak, rated kockell?

Marciano and Liston are closer than you think.