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Ron Lyle versus Deontay Wilder would be sanctioned murder.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rollin, Dec 19, 2023.

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Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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Man_Machine said: ↑

Why would you assume that, when you have posts on this thread backing Lyle before the Wilder/Parker fight even took place?
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I picked prime Wilder but it's not a hill I'm going to die on. I could certainly see Lyle pulling it off.

Seamus, Dec 24, 2023

#136

Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

The thing is Swag there is alot of double standards going on from both sides.

Luis Ortiz was a solid win for Wilder but Ortiz was older than Wilder was vs Parker who people are calling shot so which is it ? me personally i think the age argument is not a very good one and all fighters age differently.

But lets be real no one was saying Wilder was past it after destroying Helenius, and most had him the favourite vs Parker and Joshua. I think it's fair to say Wilder wasn't at his best and the inactivity would've of hurt him, but i think it's also fair to say Parker did alot of good things in the fight and should be praised for his win, lets also not forget most believed Parker was past it after the Joyce loss.

I also don't think there's any real indication that Wilder or Lyle should be a clear favourite over one another.
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Age is not an absolute. It was painfully obvious that Wilder could not react to openings and had a hard time leading the action, whatever number attached to him. Ortiz still had excellent timing after his legs turned to posts, let alone when he faced Wilder. Perhaps much of this had to do with the sustained and brutal beatings Wilder took from Fury. Ortiz hadn't been punished like that.

Seamus, Dec 24, 2023

#137

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swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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McGrain said: ↑

The only one of these guys that was ranked was Takam (8). He is 1-3 versus ranked fighters. The argument to hand will be about Wilder and how you feel about inactivity. My position is that Wilder should not have been ranked because he wasn't doing boxing (TBRB don't rank him).

Wilder, meanwhile, is 4-2-1. If you don't want to allow multiple wins over the same fighter, he is 2-2-1. The two losses are to this generations best (probably). He's clearly done better against ranked opposition than Parker has. The thing that matters here is, Parker ain't done. And If we want to start kicking on unranked guys or guys who are nearly ranked or whatever, that swells both men's resumes, but I have a standard and tend to stick to it.

I don't like these kind of conversations. I like Parker a lot, but if we start down this "his resume is weak" argument, you will end up in exactly the same place every time, especially when you are discussing mid-card fighters like Parker.

The answer to this question is always the same, it depends upon who you think Wilder was last night. I've been clear about that.

Deep resumes are rare. Lyle was awful against ranked guys. I can never remember if he knocked 1 out or 0 out. But it's one or the other. It's awful - but it's not that unusual. Mid-ranked guys who are 4-2 against ranked guys are incredibly rare. Wilder's raw data versus ranked men is decent.

Well AJ threw a lot of punches at him - Wilder threw hardly any. It's much easier to have "fire" if you're not getting attacked. I checked, and Wilder landed 5 punches more against Parker in 12 than he did Fury in 6. It was pretty passive from Wilder. Overall, I'm not attracted to this notion that Parker is mentally patchy, although he did talk a little about "momentum" post-fight, though this seemed to mean activity rather than mental wellness. I think the most motivated i've seen him in the ring was against Joyce, that was absurd. He seems a professional and well balanced man to me and I personally doubt, barring more evidence, that he has fought demotivated - especially in the biggest fight of his life.

If this loss had come after five years of inactivity, would you overlook it then?

I don't feel the need to and am baffled by the question.

Wilder doesn't have a great win resume. His hall of shame oppositional run during his "title" reign was awful. So what? People who do 4-2 -1 against ranked opposition get bad when they're old same as the incredibly rare fighters who do 7-1. If you apply this standard - old fighter loses after a 4-2-1 against ranked opposition so you can't dismiss the loss regardless of his state because his resume isn't good enough - you're making some rod for your own back. You've run to Mike Tyson to make comparisons here - nobody is claiming that kind of status for Deontay, to my knowledge. He's a just a top three heavyweight type in his own time. If you compare him instead, say, to Michael Dokes, things start to come into focus a little bit. Dokes was 1-1-2 against ranked guys throughout the 1980s and was in those rankings for at least one month during 8 of those years and in the top five for 5 of those years.

Is his career somehow dismissable, or more dismissable, because when he crashed out of those rankings he got thrashed by Razor Ruddock? Of course not. Ruddock was the guy to catch him post- his being caught with 12 ounces of coke or whatever it was, and that was that.

Wilder's numbers are definitely on the good side of normal. Parker's are on the bad side of normal. That really is what it is.
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I've never seen anyone with such pathetic credentials get so much traction in H2H match ups. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure Shavers was ranked when he fought Lyle. Fairly certain he dropped out after his loss to Stallings (Yup Lyle's best win was replicated by a 20-24 Bob Stallings). His four performances in the interim didn't set the world on fire. He drew with an unrated Young, most at ringside thought he lost, and looked "ready to go" the last two rounds, and beat three club fighters. Didn't exactly set the world on fire.

swagdelfadeel, Dec 24, 2023

#138
Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Seamus said: ↑

I picked prime Wilder but it's not a hill I'm going to die on. I could certainly see Lyle pulling it off.
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Fair enough.

Man_Machine, Dec 24, 2023

#139

Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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I think those apologizing for Wilder need to provide a rationale for why he was able to walk through Finnish giant Helenius, inside a round, and then somehow forgot how to throw punches in the space of 14 months after that.

Man_Machine, Dec 24, 2023

#140

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swagdelfadeel said: ↑

I've never seen anyone with such pathetic credentials get so much traction in H2H match ups. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure Shavers was ranked when he fought Lyle. Fairly certain he dropped out after his loss to Stallings (Yup Lyle's best win was replicated by a 20-24 Bob Stallings). His four performances in the interim didn't set the world on fire. He drew with an unrated Young, most at ringside thought he lost, and looked "ready to go" the last two rounds, and beat three club fighters. Didn't exactly set the world on fire.
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I'd say Wilder is Lyle in the multi-belt era.

Basically, Wilder picked up his belt versus Stivernne, fair enough I guess, then he put it on ice against a series of terrible, unranked opponents rubber-stamped by ABCs and then got smashed by Fury. Lyle probably could have recreated that.

McGrain, Dec 24, 2023

#141

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Seamus said: ↑

Age is not an absolute. It was painfully obvious that Wilder could not react to openings and had a hard time leading the action, whatever number attached to him.
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I said that after 1. He can see them, but he can't get the trigger pulled, so he's stalling. But your guess is as good as mine at this point.

McGrain, Dec 24, 2023

#142

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swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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McGrain said: ↑

I'd say Wilder is Lyle in the multi-belt era.

Basically, Wilder picked up his belt versus Stivernne, fair enough I guess, then he put it on ice against a series of terrible, unranked opponents rubber-stamped by ABCs and then got smashed by Fury. Lyle probably could have recreated that.
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I don't know. I can't see him beating Ortiz, nor performing nearly as well against Fury.

swagdelfadeel, Dec 24, 2023

#143
Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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McGrain said: ↑

He could have a resume fatter than Sonny Liston's dick, and I wouldn't overlook it.
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Is Sonny known for having an especially chunky pork whistle, ala Linford Christie?

Greg Price99, Dec 24, 2023

#144

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Greg Price99 said: ↑

Is Sonny known for having an especially chunky pork whistle, ala Linford Christie?
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You should read Night Train.

McGrain, Dec 24, 2023

#145

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Ioakeim Tzortzakis "The David Haye of Loma's Gay" -Edgar Allan Poe Full Member

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McGrain said: ↑

You should read Night Train.
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Huh, no wonder it's called Night Train.

Ioakeim Tzortzakis, Dec 24, 2023

#146

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NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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https://twitter.com/linealboxchamp/status/1738962287409377499?s=46&t=-SXT47Kbq2kUzSdwXzeITg

NoNeck, Dec 24, 2023

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NoNeck said: ↑

https://twitter.com/linealboxchamp/status/1738962287409377499?s=46&t=-SXT47Kbq2kUzSdwXzeITg
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Don King looked ancient then.

McGrain, Dec 24, 2023

#148
Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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Man_Machine said: ↑

I think those apologizing for Wilder need to provide a rationale for why he was able to walk through Finnish giant Helenius, inside a round, and then somehow forgot how to throw punches in the space of 14 months after that.
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Helenius was ten years past his best performances and was a substitute on ONE WEEK'S notice.

Seamus, Dec 24, 2023

#149
Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Seamus said: ↑

Helenius was ten years past his best performances and was a substitute on ONE WEEK'S notice.
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Right. But Wilder needed to make it happen. He needed to be assertive and create the opportunity, no?

So, is it the case that just the mere knowledge of Helenius' short-notice acceptance of the contest was enough to encourage Wilder to go for a KO 1 victory then?

Because, other than this, I don't see an explanation for why Wilder decided not to (or somehow could not) apply the same assertive attitude to fighting Parker.

Man_Machine, Dec 24, 2023

#150

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