Regardless that doesn't refute my arguments which question weather or not they were in their primes at the time of those fights.
Then I guess you believe that the Norton who lost to Garcia was every bit as good as the one who beat him in the rematch plus defeated Ali, Young, Quarry and gave Holmes fits... Go with it if you think it works..
As much as it pains me to say it I have to agree with Foreman&Dempsey about Garcia. Even if Norton was pre prime vs Garcia its not like Garcia was a world beater. Norton had been fighting 3 years and was undefeated in 17 fights. Garcia had been fighting 2 years (mostly at MW and LHW) and had suffered one decision loss, one KO loss, and one draw in his 16 fights. His knockout loss was just six months before facing Norton and came at the hands of LHW Allen Thomas in Thomas' second to last fight. In addition to that Norton carried a nearly 20 pound weight advantage. Using "pre prime" as an excuse for that loss is weak. In contrast Quarry had been in the ring 8 years as a pro in addition to boxing as an amateur for 14 years compared to Lyle's less than two years as a pro and 14 month amateur career. It was Quarry's 55th professional fight compared Lyle's 20th. Quarry had been a star in the sport for years compared to this being Lyle's first big fight. Quarry had faced former world champions in six fights in addition to numerous rated contenders, I may be mistaken about this but I do not believe Lyle had defeated a ranked contender when he fought Jerry Quarry. Middleton had been ranked 8th but I believe was dropped from the ratings after his loss to Quarry and I don't believe Mathis was rated when he fought Lyle either.
Those are valid criticisms which I agree with. But that doesn't mean that Norton should have been viewed as prime against Garcia either. as for Lyle he was already 32 years of age, had around 20 fights, and while neither Mathis or Middleton were ranked they were still better than anything Norton had faced to that point. Looking at the way the rest of Norton's career panned out, I think it was pretty clear that he would improve and drastically.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how good you actually think Norton was. I don't really rate him. Outside of giving Ali fits I don't think he was much. I don't even really see his fight with Holmes as close as most do outside of a few exciting rounds. At least as good a question is just how far gone was Garcia from the decent but not great fighter he was when he fought Norton? He was nearly 30 pounds overweight in the rematch for Norton, which shows, he had a soft flabby belly which looked oddly out of place on his lanky frame. He had lost five of his last 10 fights, four by knockout and three of those knockout losses came much easier than Norton's who still managed to get wobbled by Garcia anyway. At that point Garcia was pretty well shot as a top fighter and retired after one more fight. So its legitimate to ask whether Norton really improved THAT MUCH or did Garcia slide that badly, or a combination of the two. I think Norton must have improved but I think Garcia was pretty well shot when they fought which has a lot to do with outcome as well. I think Norton was a good contender but nothing more. I think he gets a lot of mileage from the Ali fights and he remains the only HW champion to never win a championship fight. An odd footnote for a guy who somehow made it into the HOF. He would have given a lot of contenders problems based on his size, conditioning, strength, and awkward style but I think Lyle isn't one of those guys. But, it really depends on which Lyle shows up. Lyle could be overly patient and rely on his boxing skills too much and if that Lyle shows up Norton could very well outpoint him. If he wakes Lyle up or makes him angry I think Lyle stomps Norton.
"outside" isn't the reality. Those were big fights and huge performances against an ATG, who incidentally Lyle couldn't do anything against. That's your opinion. I had it somewhere around 9 rounds to 6 for Holmes. Hardly a wash. Fair observations but why make concessions for one fighter in the rematch if you're not willing to do it for another in the first fight? Thing is though, avenging his loss to Garcia wasn't the only thing he ever did to measure that improvement and I think it should be obvious. Fair enough.
I agree with those who give Norton a chance of winning. I recently watched Ali-Norton 2 and Norton shook Ali badly several times, leading me to believe Ken's power is a bit underrated. Also in that fight, Ali landed well with right hands, some that stunned Norton, but Norton weathered the storm. We all know what happened when Ali stunned Lyle.
Sure it is. Ali is a monumental figure in the sport. Arguable its most famous, most recognized, and most accomplished in Norton's division. Outside of those fights, which Norton lost two out of three, he wasn't much. He avoided fights that his handlers knew he either couldn't win or might give him problems: i.e. Quarry. And in an era where the division was ridiculously deep Norton's resume is one of the thinnest of the era. His fans complain about the third Ali fight but always conveniently ignore his gift decision over Jimmy Young which is the ONLY reason he is called a champion today. The guy won his #1 ranking on a gift decision, then was handed a championship without fighting for it, and then lost it in his first defense. That's pretty weak IMO. So, I give him full credit for giving the greatest HW of all time fits but outside of that I find his resume weak and uncompelling for the HOF. I would also take issue with the idea that Lyle couldn't do anything with Ali. That's simply false. Lyle was outpointing Ali and winning that fight when it was stopped. That stoppage was disputed by not only Lyles people but a lot of others (I think it was fine because Lyle stopped punching) but to say Lyle couldn't do a thing with Ali is silly. He was ahead on two cards and the other had it a draw. He should have been clearly ahead on all cards. That is my opinion. Its worth no more or less than yours. I don't see it a wash either but I think in the majority of rounds Holmes dominated Norton. That fight isn't the back and forth for 15 rounds war its often characterized as. There were a few, maybe a handful of rounds that were great ebb and flow rounds but Holmes won that fight clearly and convincingly and did so with an injury. I did. I said Norton probably did improve. But I question how much better he actually got seeing as how I don't rate him highly to begin with vs. how shot Garcia was in the rematch. To me its very clear that Garcia travelled far further downhill than Norton went up. You can come into the ring with a beer gut nearly 30 pounds overweight and having lost half of your last 10 fights mostly by KO and then retire one fight later and claim you are anything but canvas back. And like I said. I don't doubt he improved. To what degree is the question.
I never said that Norton was 220 in his prime. I said he was still ripped when he weighed 220 Lbs. Lyle was a solid guy, not as ripped as Norton... but a very solid guy. Common rivals are worth mentioning but they don't really tell the whole story. It's like rock, paper, scissors. Ali lost decisions to Frazier and Norton. Foreman stopped Frazier KO2 and Norton KO2. Foreman was obviously the favorite vs. Ali... but Ali beat Foreman KO8.
If you admite that norton was not in his prime at 220 pounds i cant find the relevance in your comment... He looked cute at 220? It is boxing not bodybuilding. And all your list of rivals in common is irrelevant too.
The last bomb !! Hahahhaa 4 clowns are using the ali fight in order to insinuate that norton had better chin than lyle lmao
Anything anyone has ever said or written is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what has actually happened. These guys never fought... so what the fvck are we all talking about?