Absolutely, it was just awful! I personally scored it 115-112 for Calzaghe. I like many others thought Joe took over in the second half of the fight, made him fight Joe's fight, and was giving Hopkins nightmares. In the eleventh round, Joe completely overwhelmed Bernard and made him stand and trade, to the point where Bernard had to fake low blows to buy himself time. I think Joe was on the verge of at least scoring a knockdown there. Hopkins was not comfortable, for a guy that was supposedly winning. It was very good win, I agree though, I wouldn't call it great either. Indeed Chris fought a lot of hard wards of attrition in the ring, and those fights age you very quickly. I do have a lot of time for Chris Eubank, he's one of those characters who you either love him or hate him. Have you seen any of his son' fights yet? I think he was last on channel 5 on the Tyson Fury undercard. Agreed that Joe did age better than Roy. However, Joe was also a better boxer than he's given credit for. However, (thinking back to the Mitchell and Brewer fights), Joe fought hard and was willing to stand and trade, and absorb punishment in a way that Roy wasn't. Of course, Joe would say that he was more complete at 35, fighters will always say they're better than ever. I'm sure I can dig up a couple of quotes from Roy in the last few years where he states he feels like he's 29 again, and fresher than ever. Joe in his younger days was quicker, physically stronger and threw his punches with bad intentions. You could argue that at 35, Calzaghe was more skillful, but I wouldn't say he was a better fighter than he was aged 28. It's a shame that for one reason or another, those big fights didn't happen when Joe was in his physical prime. I would have liked to have seen Joe tested a bit harder in those days, especially the Hopkins fight in 2002 would have been great. Indeed, it was considered such a great win for Roy at the time, because for the first time, we saw him dig deep and have to fight hard to get the win. Which was shocking because Roy Jones always made it all look so easy. When you say 'x' fighter retired undefeated, the first question is always well who did they fight? I think considering the length of Joe's career, and the fact that he did beat good to very good fighters, the '0' is impressive, but it doesn't make him great. I think Roy had to fight Tarver, for a proud man and a fighter like Roy, there was no way he could rest easy without facing Tarver, considering the size of the fight, and the hype about it. Unfortunately, I think that Tarver KO in the second fight, is what sent Roy into this downward spiral (which is why he's still fighting today). As Larry said, Roy was so flamboyant and egotistical, to suffer a humbling like that is hard to take, and he's never really recovered from it. I think it would have been held against him. Just like Floyd Mayweather, part of their legacy is going undefeated, if they suffered a loss they'd suffer for it. Calzaghe has enough detractors, and if he lost, even it was at age 37, people would cut him no slack for it. You say if Joe had fought 10 years ago, he wouldn't have gone undefeated. Interesting point, personally I think Joe beats a younger Eubank, Nigel Benn and Steve Collins. I also see him beating Malinga, Tate, and I might cop some flack for saying this, but I think Joe would have beaten James Toney. The only one I can't say 'Joe would beat' is Roy Jones, and there's no guarantee they would have fought. However, fighting those guys would be brutal wars, which would have taken their toll. There's no way Joe would have been so fresh at age 35 if he was facing these guys, in which case a shopworn Calzaghe could have been beaten. Hopefully we will get to see bigger and better fights in Britain in the future, the likes of Carl Froch are great for British boxing. I can see you're point about Tarver, but not Griffin. Griffin was a good fighter, but I don't see him on the level of Tarver or Kessler. Would Joe have made the same money, fighting in America as a contender in the LHW division, as he would have defending his belt in huge football stadiums in Wales? Ottke would have gotten knocked out, and he did well to avoid Joe Calzaghe. Kessler is a very good fighter, who is still going strong today despite being somewhat past his best. Let's not forget that a past prime Kessler took Froch's '0' and title, and is considered Ward's best win. Joe's achievements eclipse Ward's and Froch's to date no doubt. I think either Hopkins or Kessler can be considered Joe's best wins, which is no shame. Hopkins is Roy's second best win. Joe did age better, but a 28 year old Calzaghe would have knocked that version of Jones out hands down. Joe's punch resistance was also better in his younger days. Roy is a different case, in that he was shopworn at age 35 despite taking relatively little punishment. But why couldn't Roy achieve much after he suffered a couple of losses? Tommy Hearns had been knocked out twice in a bad fashion (against Hagler and Barkley), and years past his prime he still produced an excellent performance against Virgil Hill.
The main query I have about that, is how Joe would handle going up to HW, which I don't think he would too well based on his style. If we're going off Roy's resume below HW, then yes I think Joe would beat all of those guys (that's no slight on Roy). You're right about Johnson, however I still Roy had enough in him that night to beat Glen. I don't think anyone considers Antonio Tarver greater than Roy Jones, even though he won their trilogy. Thanks you too mate. Exactly, like Tommy, he just loves fighting. I don't really see what Roy thinks winning a CW title will do for him? Maybe it's for his gratification, he needs that feeling of being champion again, which he hasn't had for so long, as he spent so many years as champion, he didn't get to retire on his terms, which he wants to do as a champion. I think I speak for all boxing fans, when I say no-one wants to see either of them fight again! We're happy with the memories! That's a very good point you've made about Roy becoming the second fighter in history to come back from HW to defend his LHW crown, I forgot about that. Indeed that adds even more weight to the Tarver victory. I don't rate Ruiz very highly, but agree that for a former MW champion to beat him is a big accomplishment no doubt. In all honesty, to give credit to Roy, I don't think many LHW's or SMW's would have the courage to take on that kind of challenge, against a guy that big. As I stated before, what made the Tarver victory even more impressive is that Roy had to dig deep, and fight hard for it unlike we'd seen before. Tarver and Kessler are probably similar level of fighters In my 20's, so I'm still 'young'!. Thank you, you're boxing knowledge is very impressive. This sight is full of boxing experts who know far far more than me though! My knowledge is good only on a certain limited number of fighters (mainly that I grew up watching), By the way, what other fighters do you like?
Probably the most likely outcome. I wouldnt count Tommy Hearns out but Roy was supernatural at `68 and `60 for that matter he just wasnt at middle as long.
Knockout, Hi mate, Great reply, I love our debates! I haven't seen anything of Eubank's son as yet. I've missed him the last few times he's been on tv. What's he like? I think it was Scott on here, that said he didn't think he'd make it past domestic level. I went on holiday to Cyprus about three weeks ago, and while I was there I decided to by a newspaper. I was lying by the pool and I looked on the back page, and it said, Chris Eubank wants to fight again. I could hardly believe it! Did you hear about that? He can't have been serious though because I haven't heard anything since. When I was 13-14 I hated Eubank, and I always wanted him to lose. I was a huge Nigel Benn fan. But as I got older, I learnt that it was just an act, and he was playing the part of the bad guy to the camera's. As time went on, I found myself really loving him and his interviews. IT was the same with Naz. Naz was a fighter that people loved to hate, but most of it was tongue in cheek. I used to love his interviews. Whenever I've got some spare time on my hands, I go on youtube and look at all of the old footage. There's some cracking stuff on there. I could spend hours looking at old Eubank and Naz fights and interviews. Have you seen the documentary on Eubank that Louis Theroux did? It was great! I honestly couldn't predict what would have happened if Joe had've fought Hopkins in 2002. What do you think would have happened? Maybe if Roy had beaten Tarver convincingly the first time, he would have retired? I'm not sure. I think he may have done, but I think he'd have come back after a few years. The Tarver knockout was the beginning of the end, but I still think he'd be fighting today whatever would have happened. I agree that Joe probably would have beaten everyone apart from Roy. Toney is too hard for me to call though. I could see a few outcomes, but Joe was definitely good enough to beat him. Maybe you're right about the Griffin win not being as good as the Kessler win. After Roy beat him he didn't do much. He seemed to just fizzle out. But he was a good fighter. I think that knockout win was a fantastic win, but I can see your point, and in terms of importance, the Kessler win obviously tops that. Would Joe have made more money fighting in the U.S.? As I've discussed numerous times, I think Joe had to look at the bigger picture when he was in his late 20's. I don't think he would have made a lot of money at first. But if he'd have become a household name over there, which I think was more than possible, then he would have been involved in bigger fights, and I think he'd have had an opportunity to fight Roy. I'm a fan of Andre Ward, but I don't know where he goes from here, now that Froch has just hammered Bute. It should be a good fight between him and Dawson. Is Ward moving up, or is Dawson moving down? I think Ward is going to have to move up to 175 soon, because there nothing left for him to do at 168. I agree that a 28 year old version of Joe would have knocked out that version of Roy. But of course it works both ways. I think Roy at his absolute peak at 25/26 beats any version of Joe. I'm not sure why Roy couldn't go on and do what Tommy did after his defeats. I think it was his loss of confidence, his punch resistance and his reflexes. Maybe Tommy was mentally stronger? But once Roy lost his unique athletic gifts, he was always going to be in big trouble. I think the biggest problem was Roy's legs. He still had his amazing handspeed when he fought Trinidad, Joe and Lacy, but his legs had gone. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. He'd got the timing (have you seen his outragous skills on the speedbag?) but he no longer had the footwork. Joe was reluctant to go to 175, so there's no way he would ever have considered going up to Cruiser or Heavy. Although to be fair, him and Roy had completely different physiques. Although you could argue that Tarver has done it, and his physique was similar to Joe's. This site is full of knowledgeable posters. There's a lot of people on here with a lot more knowledge than me. It's just a shame all the idiots on here spoil it. But overall it's a great forum, and I'm really glad I joined. I love debating with people like yourself. My knowledge is only based on certain fighters, obviously Roy is one of them, him being my favourite fighter. I first started watching boxing when I was 7 in 1987. The first fight I ever saw was "The Superfight!" between SRL and Hagler. I've been hooked ever since. I grew up watching Naz, Eubank, Benn, Joe, Lewis, Collins, Ryan Rhodes etc in my teens. I was a bit too young in the 80's to appreciate guys like Herol Graham. I used to go to the local video shop when I was about ten, and watch videos of Ali and all the old fighters, and I used to hire out videos of Tyson. They used to have a good boxing section. I used to watch Champions Forever a lot and watch videos of the old Heavyweights like Louis and Marciano, Dempsey, and Johnson. In the 90's I was a huge Oscar De la Hoya fan, and I used to stay up for all of his fights. I liked Mosley too, and Fernando Vargas. I used to love watching Floyd when he fisrt came on the scene too, but these days I can't even stand to listen to him being interviewed. I was also a big Barrera and Morales fan aswell. My favourite fighter at the moment is probably Saul Alvarez. I like his style and he's so strong at the weight. I'm expecting big thing from him and I'd love to see him fight Floyd. I've got a lot of respect for Khan as a fighter, but I don't like him at all. Are you a fan? I find it hard to listen to him when he's been interviewed, like Floyd. I know he's British, but he's a legend in his own mind, and I have to be honest, I'd like to see him get beat again. But he is a great fighter, and he's improved a lot since he went to America and teamed up with Freddie Roach, so I've got to give him some credit there. Thanks once again for your great reply. Regards, Loudon.
Same mate! These kind of debates are exactly what these boards should be about Yeah he's fun to watch, has a crowd pleasing style. His opponent was 5-0 I think, and Chris jr took him out later on, which is impressive considering it was his 3rd fight. A lot of guys are still facing opponents with losing records at that point. Technically though, he's got glaring flaws, one thing I pointed out at the time was that when he throws his left, he drops his right (they call it the archer), and he did it repeatedly and got nailed with left hooks. If you're getting hit repeatedly at this level, then when you step up you're going to get hurt! I'm not sure who Scott is, but he may be right, the only way to know is when he steps up, most prospects look great at this point in their careers. Though, to be fair, he's fighting good opponents as he's learning, I just checked his boxrec, and his last opponent was 12-5, which is good considering it's his fourth fight, Chris won on points. I think Chris Snr just loves the attention, anything to get on the backpages! I saw it as well, I think he mentioned he wanted to fight Nigel Benn again, but there's no way you'll get Nigel back into a boxing ring anymore! At Chris Jnr's fight, in between rounds, the camera was focused on his dad, and at one point he even came over to Chris' corner from the crowd to offer advice, which isn't good as he already has trainers there do that! In the post fight interview, they spent more time talking to Chris Snr than Jnr! By the way, in Cyprus lying by the pool, sounds great! :good Eubank was brilliant at playing the media off! Nigel Benn was just himself, raw and didn't care what anyone thought. I actually have to say I like both equally as much! They gave us two great fights, and brought plenty of excitement to British boxing. Do you think either will ever get into the Hall of Fame? Yeah you're right, I saw some old footage of Naz trash talking Chris Eubank at a press conference, and Chris trying to play the gentleman whilst clearly getting wound up! Yeah I have seen the Eubank documentary on Eubank, it was good, I remember they sparred at one point, and Louis was too scared to even throw a punch! I even used to watch At home with the Eubanks back in the day! In my opinion, the more Hopkins engages Joe, the more he gets hit and loses rounds. The reason Hopkins had some success that night, was because of his dirty spoiling tactics, and the fact that Joe Cortez allowed him to get away with it. Joe wasn't at his best that night. I think styles comes into play here. Fast two handed fighters who throw high volumes of punches are Hopkins kryptonite (Jones, Taylor, Calzaghe). Therefore I go with Joe by decision. Maybe if Roy had beaten Tarver convincingly the first time, he would have retired? I'm not sure. I think he may have done, but I think he'd have come back after a few years. The Tarver knockout was the beginning of the end, but I still think he'd be fighting today whatever would have happened. Agreed, Toney at his best was devestating, but at SMW, how often was he at his best? Toney's best run was at MW, when he moved up he became lazier and less focused. I think Joe would beat the SMW version of James Toney, in a hard fight. Yeah agreed, I read that he was doing very well against Darius until the stoppage. Yeah, I guess it was either to take the high risk high reward route, or low risk medium reward, and Joe and Frank chose the latter. Though I think Joe would have traveled if the Hopkins fight had materialised. Though to be fair, besides Hopkins and Jones, who else was out there? As we discussed, by the time Joe became a viable opponent, Roy was looking at bigger things and moving up to HW. I think Ward missed a golden opportunity against Bute, who turned out to be overrated. Dawson is coming down to 168, I see Ward winning a decision. Yeah, other than a Froch rematch (which I don't want to see), what's left for him at 168? The LHW division is quite shallow as well, especially once Ward has already fought Dawson. Fair enough I was pondering this as I typed out my last message, why couldn't Roy produce one last great performance? We've seen it with many fighters, like Leonard against Hagler, Frazier against Ali, Hearns against Hill. I guess a lot of it's about hunger, and maybe Roy had lost some of that hunger for the sport? Which fits in with his poor training camps for the Tarver and Johnson fights. I think I've seen his video on the punchbag, with some other guys, where he hits the ball 4 times with perfect left hooks at lightning speed! Believe me, I've been in the gym on the same type of punchbag, and tried the same move and looked very silly, how he does that is absolutely unbelievable! (I'm not slow either!) Yeah, it's a shame things didn't happen for Joe sooner in his career, he could have been a real force at LHW as well. I don't Joe would have handled moving to CW or HW well at all, his style and body type just wasn't suited to it. Joe had enough injury problems, adding all that extra weight would have been a nightmare. Also, Tarver is very tall, and has a long reach. I recently saw Tarver calling out Wladimir Klitschko, and had to laugh, surely he knows no-one will take him seriously! Yeah, there are posters on here who've been following the sport much longer than I've been alive, as far back as when the likes of Sugar Ray Robinson were around! You get some excellent debates on here, and learn a lot just reading people's posts.
Unfortunately the fab four were a bit before my time, but I love that era of boxing. Leonard Duran and Hagler are all legends, and of course Tommy Hearns is my favourite. Have you read the four kings, great book about that era. I also read the Thomas Hearns biography which I recommend, another good read. Oscar gets a lot of respect, for the fact that he fought near enough everyone. One thing you can't question is his heart, and courage. He was also very skillful and had an excellent chin. By the way, do you think Oscar got robbed against Trinidad? I certainly do, he made Trinidad look so limited at times. Mosley was always in exciting fights, and of course I'm a big Floyd Mayweather fan. I don't pay too much attention to his 'Money Mayweather' persona, but his fights always involve such a high level of skill, I enjoy them. Morales and Barrera are brilliant! One of the best trilogies ever. I also enjoyed Barrera schooling Naz, who I didn't like. Have you seen the video of Morales, where he knocks the guy out (after all the trash talking), and then poses by his body? I can't remember who it's against, but it made me laugh. I liked Ricky Hatton when he was around, the build up to Mayweather-Hatton was unreal. Unfortunately, I knew he was getting KO'd against Pacquiao, didn't bother watching it, and when I woke up in the morning I wasn't surprised when reading about it. Alvarez does look really strong, but I'm reserving judgement on him until he steps up competition. I hope he fights Victor Ortiz in September. Beating up a 43 year old Mosley doesn't impress me. I like Amir Khan because he's willing to fight anyone anywhere, and I respect that. However, I agree that his interviews are terrible, and it's like he's trying to build himself up as a star the way Mayweather did. I saw the picture of him in front of a stripper with a wad of cash, saw the pictures of him with his lambhorgini, and fair enough, he's young rich and enjoying himself. However, he isn't Floyd Mayweather, and in Britain we don't care much for celebrities posing with money, and hanging out in stripclubs. Ricky Hatton was a celebrity because he came across as an honest everyday guy (he milked that for all it was worth!), and gave it his all in the ring. Same with Froch, he's popular because he gives it all in the ring and it makes for exciting fights. I stayed up all night for the Khan-Peterson, and whilst I scored it to Khan as the winner, I was kind of glad he lost, I liked Peterson (until the steroids scandal). Sorry if I've gone off on one here! I'm also a fan of Kell Brook, I was at the Brook-Hatton fight in Sheffield, and was really impressed with Kell that night. I think he's really talented, and can go all the way to win a world title. A fight with Khan would be massive in 18 months time, but Kell needs to win a world title, to bring Khan's team to the table. You too mate, sorry for the huge posts! Have a good weekend :good
Knockout, That was the best post I've ever had on here mate. Don't apologise for it being long. I enjoyed reading every word of it mate. As soon as I've got time, i'll reply. Same to you mate, hope you have a great weekend. Regards, Loudon.
What people don't realize about Hearns is that he fought the same in most of his bouts, I'm trying to avoid the tag "one dimensional", but Hearns fought with his left hand at his waist and right hand at his chest for all his bouts mostly and would just pop the jab over and over and try to get a stationary enough target to land his overhand right.......As his career progressed he landed his right hand less and less cause Tommy opposition was already hipped to his style by the time he reached 160, if very much less fighters than Roy can somewhat neutralize Tommy's right hand then a true to life ATG like Roy would for sure. Roy wins this fight by 8th round TKO.
Roy wasn't mature or experienced enough at 160 to beat Hearns. Hearns, capable and forged in fire at that weight, would be the more consistent fighter behind the jab, and likely win a decision. At 168, against the Roy that beat Toney, Jones does to Hearns what Hearns did to Duran: Obliterates him. Hearns wasn't as great at 168, and his own weak jaw and defensive flaws became more apparent as he started fighting bigger guys. Roy's best weight was 175, and Hearns was 154. Once Roy is filled out, and Hearns is way above his best weight, Roy eats him alive. Hearns chin was weaker, and at the higher weights, Roy hit harder and was faster. A step too far at 168.
Jones was a beast at 160 and Tommy less so (despite having some better wins there) so I'd pick Roy. Loudon and Knockout Artist some quality discussion there fellas. Really enjoyed reading it :thumbsup
Thanks mate! I love your avatar. I used to watch Sumo when I was a kid in the 80's. Is that a photo of The Dump Truck? Ha! Regards, Loudon.
Knockout, Hi mate, sorry for the late reply. Part 1. I'm definitely going to watch young Eubank the next time he fights. From reading what you've put, it's got me intrigued. Scott on here is SJS19. You're right about his Dad, he does love the attention. That's definitely not a good sign, that he's interfering in the corner. I never used to like seeing Roy Snr and Coach Merk in Roy's corner. When Chris retired after the Carl Thompson fights, I actually though he'd have two or three years off, and then have another two or three fights. Also, I don't like to see great fighters go out on a loss. It must be unbelievably hard for them to do so, but Eubank and Benn got out at the right time. I know tht Roy will never ever retire on a defeat. He'll never do it. But the thing is, when he wins, it encourages him to keep going. I really miss those days with Benn and Eubank. I just wish they'd have given Nigel the decision in the rematch (which I think he deserved) then they probably would have had a 3rd fight at some point, and Benn would probably have gone on to fight Toney. I hope that both of them get into the Hall of Fame. I think they both deserve it. Ha! That Louis Theroux documentary was brilliant. I haven't seen it for ages, I'll have to watch it on youtube. I completely forgot about at home with the Eubanks ha! I wonder if he's still got his truck? I went to France on a family holiday in 1995 when I was 15, and we got the Ferry from New Haven to Dieppe. On the way back after we'd got off the Ferry, we drove through Brighton. We were in a campervan. I was with my young cousins who were mad boxing fans, and as we drove on the front, we saw loads of joggers. Everytime we passed a jogger, my Dad shouted "Eubanks's here" and it went on for about five mins, til you guessed it, we actually saw Eubank. Well my Dad did, and he quickly indicated and pulled the van in. At the time we thought it was still part of the wind up, but he quickly got out and shouted Chris. I looked out of the back window, and he'd stopped jogging, and he was walking back towards the van. None of us could believe it. He couldn't have been training for a fight, because he wasn't running hard, and he didn't have any earphones in. If he had have been training, he probably wouldn't have stopped. But he came and met all of us (there were 7 of us in the van) and he stayed and chatted for a few mins and posed for photo's. It was incredible! He was a perfect gentleman, and he had a bit of banter with the kids. I'll never forget it. Regarding Hopkins vs Joe in 2002, that's great analysis. I think I could go along with that. It's a shame it didn't come off. Regarding Toney, I think that would have been an incredible fight. You're right Toney would have to be at his best. But when I think about the match, I think Toney would have abused him and mocked him at every opportunity. I think he would have trashed talked at the press conferences and the weigh in, and I think he'd have made Joe angry, which would have suited Toney down to the ground. I think James would have baited him into having a macho tear up in the middle of the ring. I think if Joe was calm he could have been a nightmare for him. But if he'd have traded with him angrily (which I think he would have done) I think Toney would have beaten him. So for me, it would all depend on Joe's mindset going into the fight. I would have paid a lot of money to have seen that fight. I think it could have been incredible. The build up itself would have been fantastic. What do you think will happen in the Ward vs Dawson fight? I think Roy's last great performance was the Lacy fight. It meant nothing but he was 40 and he looked great. This is where I have to give Joe some credit. Because Roy's great Lacy performance was two fights after his fight with Joe. Roy looked amazing against Lacy. So I give Joe credit, but I still don't think he could ever have beaten Roy at Roy's peak. I don't know if you've seen the Lacy fight? But his reflexes looked great. Obviously Lacy isn't fast, but half way throught the fight, Roy backs himself into the ropes near the corner of the ring. He turns his head to talk to someone ringside, while Lacy is throwing bombs at his head. Roy is looking at Lacy through the corner of his eye, and he's dodging the shots whilst talking to someone. It was unbelievable. Then just three months later, he was knocked out by Green. What I couldn't understand was, it wasn't the stoppage that bothered me, it was the fact that Roy got it with that temple shot. Danny Green isn't fast, and the punch he threw wasn't fast. Roy never saw it coming at all. I couldn't believe that in late August he was dodging Lacy shot's up close out of one eye, and then early Dec he had no reaction to Green's overhand right? They say a boxer ages overnight, and I think that's when I knew Roy was completely done. He should have retired after Lacy, but the performance was that good, it encouraged him to fight again. I really don't like Tarver, and I'd love to see him fight a K brother. Yeah you're right, you can learn a hell of a a lot on here from the other posters. This is a great forum.
Part 2. I was born in 1980, so the Fab Four were before my time too really. I never watched any of the fights live, only on videos. I haven't read the book, i've heard it's good. I've got the Fab Four video though. I'm also in the middle of reading The Hitman's biography by Brian Hughes. Oscar was a class act! He was desperately unlucky in some of his fights. He definitely beat Trinidad, I couldn't beleive the decision. I think he made a mistake not engaging him for the last few rounds, but it shouldn't have mattered, the fight had already been won then in my opinion. The Pac fight was a joke. He hadn't made the weight for 9 years and he only rehydrated by 2 pounds. He was dead at the weight. Manny wouldn't have fought him if he'd have been a few years younger. Prime Oscar would have destroyed him at that weight. I enjoyed it too when Barrera schooled Naz. I was a big fan of Ricky's too. I'm also reserving judgement on Alvarez, but I love to see him fight. I love Martinez too. I'd love to see him fight Manny and Floyd. I'd like to see Kell vs Khan too. But I don't think it'll happen anytime soon. Amir hasn't even moved up tp 147 yet as he? When you say you saw Roy hit the punch bag, are you talking about the punch bag or the double end bag? Here are a few videos showing Roy's awesome handspeed. You may have seen them before? If you watch closely in the first one, he hits the speedball normally, but then he puts his hand round the bag of the bag and hits it towards him, and then back again. (The camera angle isn't great though) http://youtu.be/JQsGzLacCyc Here's another one. http://youtu.be/1B39jMvN7pk Finally, you've probably seen this one before, it's been around for a while. It's on the double end bag. That bag is fast, and watch what Roy does to it at 6 mins in. It's quite incredible! http://youtu.be/JbRykf-5Zo8 Fantastic debate mate. Regards, Loudon.
Could go either way. If they fought 3 times one guy would win 2, or maybe they would both go 1-1-1 vs. each other?