My question to you cross trainer is as follows: How does a prime Arturo Gatti stack up technically with fighters like Greb? Im assuming you believe Gatti's heart, determination, will and toughness measures up to Greb's.
Yes but there is one fatal flaw in your entire argument. None of these clips actualy show Greb fighting however much you might like to think they do. Frankly you don't know what he is really doing in any of them. Yet on the basis of this you think that you can dismiss his entire record? I would also suggest that even if the footage did show Greb fighting, you greatly over rate the value of your own observation. If I thought Muhamad Ali looked crap on film it would say more about my own judgment than his abilities. And if I tried to argue it purely on the basis of his fight against that kick boxer you would say that I was being totaly preposterous. There is film of many of Greb's best oponents who he soundly defeated fighting and they clearly do stack up against the best fighters from the post war era. That is actual film of them fighting not conjecture based on them shadow boxing or sparring with a 50 year old man.
Hi! I'm late for the parade, but this looks like fun so i will have a stab if you don't mind. Certainly Greb is known for heart, grit, stamina and toughness but I don't subscribe to this view. I think that the toughest guys got to prove this because of how often they had to fight etc., but really I see no difference between old school tough (as it exsists within a person) and new-age tough. Duran v Greb is an interesting one - but Greb is to big for Duran IMO. I'm not particularly interested in this footage of Greb - it doesn't mean much to me because the guy is sparring. There is some decent footage of Langford actually fighting floating about. He exhibits much technical excellence.
Nice to hear you have an open mind and will supply credit where you feel it's due. I like that. My position is different. I don't see a lot o difference between eras where the top 1 and 2% of fighters are concerned. That is, at the sport of boxing, someone like Johnson or Langfrod or Greb could step out of a time machine and box top men succesfully over 12 rounds. Similairly, Hopkins or Mayweather could go back and do the same.
I think i would do you good to accept that Greb would probably look different when fighting. I also think you should accept that it is possible - possible - that Greb is "showing". These guys made money sparring, showing and it was much more theatrical than their natural style. Here, Greb may be showing for the camera - a flattering audience i'm sure. Regardless, though, I honestly think you are onto a loser trying to dismantle an entire era via some sparring footage. That is not sensible in my view.
I agree with you. You know the term "walk through his punches"? That term is one that is rarely adopted by a trainer. It is a fighter that will make the decision to do this. It is based on the power that the fighter feels in the ring. Old timers are experts in feeling their man out, first round. Why do you think that old time fighters would continue to block relativley harmless punches to the body all night because you've seen them do it on footage? They can block head shots too you know, it's just not the same priority. In the literal argument you are presenting this makes for an interesting first round where the old school fighter tries to feel out his opponents power (limited to the body in relative terms) and the new age fighter may try to counter of blocked body shots to the head. Interesting. But why is in conclusive?! You think a ring genius like Langford will spend all night blocking to the body once he knows the score?! If he can spar one round in preperation for the fight, he will not even do so for the first round. On the flip side, any fighter who expects to win a fight with the assistnace of body shots can probably forget about it; the old-school fighter will be an expert at blocking body shots. Technically excellent at it, in fact. I think i've shown that it is a technical flaw which would exsist for the very early stages of the fight - and only in a case where a really stupid fighter can't tell that he is waring what he would consider "sparring gloves", much less hurtful to the body. It is a "technical flaw" which is era-dependant, exsists for a reason. You can argue that old-school fighters may be less experienced at blocking head shots and I think that would be reasonable. It seems to be the least interesting factor in any old-school v new school fighter to me.
I disagree. I think they also made for a very intersting psychological edge from the point of view of a proper bluff, which is to say, an opponent will always have a feeling over whether a move is a feint or a punch and will react accoringly. It also puts more empahsis on reactions and recovery. They are still used today, Hopkins is quite good at it. I think it's handy for a achieving an advantage in footwork, so getting your leg outside your opponents leg - I think that, more than any other thing, is the reason Hopkins is so succesful v southpaws. If I am right, this shows how crucial feinting can be. Aggresion is scored heavily. "Clipping" is certainly easier with modern gloves, so I would dispute this statement as far as modern fighters are concerned (though not as far as technical excellence is concerned). You sure? When I watch Dempsey box, I don't feel that way. Interesting. I'd hear more about why you think this if you are up for it. I got into boxing via violence. I threw a punch that was descibed as near pefect without having any formal training at all, leverage was the tool I used - I would certainly argue that it's instictive (for some) But still - I'm not dismissing what you've said, i'd like to hear about it.
Good post. I still feel though, that one of the most crucial things about feinting, is about achieving an advantage in positioning which can even become semi-permenant.
If you think Greb was a fat Middlweight, i have no help for you. If you think a big lightweight is not smaller and weaker than even a fat middleweight, I have no help for you.
Well, I feel in the last wee while i've dealt with many specific points pertaining to technical skill. What shocks me friend, is how extreme you are in your views of technical excellence. It is one of the most important factors. But if you really think that a years training is enough to see a fighter of Greb's natural attributes defeated by an average male, your position is weak when trying to assert that someone elses views are absurd.