Why waste time trying to offer up a complex argument of the science when any fair minded person could see the difference in ability right off? Since you guys can't then maybe I'll have to put a little effort into this. As of now, I have no clue why AMsterdam signed me up for this because I've told him the people who hold old school fighters can't be convinced otherwise because they have deep delusions and will blatently lie to themselves. I want to make two points and if anyone can respond with anything resembling an intelligent opinion then I might take the time to continue this discussion: 1. Everyone seems to use the argument the guys in the olden days had more heart, grit, stamina and toughness. How do you guys see Greb matching up with an evolved fighter of this nature in Roberto Duran? 2. here is a video of Greb shadow boxing that has been posted on this forum. The man would jump in the air when he punches. :rofl Explain to me how this allows you to land a decent shot, be in a position while punching not to be countered and to end up in good position?
That's right, Magnum - ignore such points as these: - Greb was known not to take training very seriously - He was past his prime in the footage - Differences in rules/equipment meant differences in method - Footage is grainy and missing frames
- Jumping in the air while is written off the slate because he didn't take his training seriously..fascinating Have you ever seen Ricardo Mayorga use such bad technique in training? When fighters of today are half-assing it, they just look like themselves with less snap and speed. -Oh..my mistake :rofl You know, Roy Jones is past his prime, I've never seen him jump around flaling his arms because he was just goofing off -I hear this a lot. PLEASE explain how this make that big of a difference. Bear in mine, I own a pair of gloves from the 1940's and know exactly how they compare to Grant, Reyes and Winning. -Footage was perfectly clear for as long as it needed to be for me to see him jumping in the air, flalling his arms and never maintaining positioning. So, How does he match up with Duran?
1920's gloves were slightly smaller, I believe. Go back to earlier and you see 2-4 oz. gloves, some with open fingers like modern MMA gloves.
It's on?? You didn't answer question number 1 yet. I'm going to a birthday party, looks like I'll be back on tonight. Oh and let me make something clear, I'm not doing this to disrespect old school fighters. They paved the way and fought in a different era. One thing I can say, you put the greats of yesteryear into this era, they would evolve and be able to compete with anyone today.
And??? What difference does that make? I'm assuming you mean it made it harder to defend. Watch a modern fighter. Show me one who doesnt block punches with his hands open inside of his gloves. If you dont like this angle, on top of it I can say the incredibly more hardened guys of yesteryear should have been able to take a punch to the hand and keep coming, surely?
The bottom line is these guys did whatever it took to be the best. That's what it will always take to reach the peak. Even with the dumber fighters, you give them a great trainer and they could eventually make it there. Sorry, you did. I actually meant question number 2, which you danced around like Mayweather from Baldomir. Yes, but Duran is MUCH better technically. By miles, not feet. So these rule changes..which rule made it a good idea to try and block punches to the body with your hands in the old days. Let's say an old time great does this against Oscar De La Hoya and Oscar is stepping in close trying to beat them with a shorter shot like he did Mayorga. Oscar jabs to the body, the old time great brings his right hand down to block it from a bad angle while out of position, how does the odl time great get in position and block Oscar's next punch without being knocked down or out like iron chinned Mayorga was?
How do you know Greb's routine wasn't just a cardio activity? You don't so I'll suggest you give yourself an uppercut. Read above. Pointing to Greb being past his prime was not an excuse; I was merely letting you know, so that if you thought he looked slow or unagile, that could be accounted for. Think about it; if you've got smaller gloves, it's not as easy to block punches in the modern way, so you won't be as eager to go forward. Hence the reason some old-time fighters would punch while leaving their head still jerked backwards. That is but one example. Ah, but it wasn't. You just think; those missing frames make fighters from that era look jerky. Black n' white, grainy footage doesn't let us observe subtle details as easily. Non-existant audio doesn't allow us to hear sounds (like landed punches or breathing exhalations) that may amplify the aesthetical effect of a punch.
* It makes it far more dangerous to move in (as, in fact, you can see in modern MMA competitions, among other things), and therefore encourages greater feinting and counterpunching skills at the expense of combinations. * Gloves that are smaller are also harder to block with the open glove, and blocking with one's hand (whether open or closed) is apt to hurt the blocker in the extreme 2-4 oz. glove situations. * Smaller gloves are easier to slip, leading to a greater emphasis on head movement and more subtle head movement (larger gloves require more movement to avoid). * Smaller gloves make body shots pay higher dividends, which dictate your strategy.
How do you know it was? :yep Keep in mind, I've seen him fight too. Yes, that just doesn't make any sense. I wasnt commenting on his speed. I was tearing apart his Abysmal technical form. What is this suppose to prove? MY POINT? What you're doing here is stockpiling arguments to try and convince yourself that you're correct. The film doesnt change the fact that I saw his technique. You already argued above that he wasn't jumping, he was past his prime, so obviously we both can see the video and what is going on. :tired Just curious, would you happen to be a viscious boxer fan as well?
Arguello was a textbook fighter. Pryor was very technical at being a volume pressure fighter. Thus, the EVOLVED style, my entire argument proven. It's possible and we have several more of them today. Yes, and this is one of my pointsd as to why they cannot possibly compete at today's level. It's technically assanine to try and block the majority of all body punches with your hands. The only use that is left of this method is to parry a reaching body shot. So in the last part of this, these guys are super human I guess? Haven't you learned that this technical flaw, which they repeatedly commit is VERY dangerous and is often a sign of a major flaw in defense?
Let's look at his sparring rather than his shadowboxing. It would make more sense since we're talking about IN RING performance, would it not? [yt]HMA6Pd6tT3Q[/yt] And yes, I'm sure you can still pick out many flaws. But at least with this, you'll be doing it with the way he actually fought.
The most woefull part of this whole issue is that the film dose not even show Greb fighting. It could be a cardio workout. It could be an informal sesion. He could just be trying to develop one aspect of his game like reflexes. Yet some people still seek to unwrite his entire record on the basis of this trivial footage.
Didn't block body shots with the hands. They blocked with the arms--or at least, this is what they did during the 1860-1899 timeline that I deal with most of the time.
This is not the issue. I'm not asserting anything, you are. Oh, and you haven't seen Greb fight; you've seen him in a light spar. My postings should not be confined to your personal expectations; I pointed something out because I wanted to, regardless if it meant anything to you or not. No. Actually, what is your point? Do you think you have one over on me or something? I haven't even made a statement, merely picked you up on a few things. I'm not trying to convince myself I'm correct - there's nothing to be correct about. I'm viewing things from a neutral perspective; what I'm picking you up on is your one-dimensional views, i.e., not taking everything into account. I am just as much against posters of the opposite side who think Greb would tear Hagler a new arsehole. I do not know what you're talking about.