The video clearly shows a punch when Ali kod Liston ,what isnt clear is if it was legit. I am sure Carnera could ko me ,but I doubt he could ko most heavyweights who were any good. Jim Maloney, had a notoriously china chin ,he went the distance twice with Carnera without tasting canvas. Larry Gains and Joe Louis, both said Carnera's power was negligible. I think anyone with a 70% ko record should have some evidence of it on film,and apart from the Sharkey fight I see none for Primo,which leads me to bring into question the validity of his record. I dont really have a burning desire to convince anyone either way on this fight. I have an open mind on it, I just gave one side of it. I didnt say it wasnt real,I said the way Sharkey collapses looks theatrical to me. The jury is still out imo.
Well, we can agree to disagree on some of these points. I think we came a long way though. :good And as far as Ali-Liston II, that is a whole other thread in itself. But, if you want my opinion on that one, the punch was real and Liston went down. Now the acting that he did afterwards...I don't believe. I think Liston just quit. I think he knew he couldn't beat Ali and the man had gotten in his head. Some of the conspiracy theories on the bout are possible though. Maybe Liston was paid/forced to take a dive. Regardless, he lost to the better fighter, period. I would love to stay and chat, but I work early mornings now and need a little sleep. I'll catch up with you guys later.
The Leon See evidence is damning, even though it is possible that he had an axe to grind. He lists the fixes in detail and they tally with the known facts. See Frederic Mullally's excellent book on Primo. The list ends Levinsky with the Torriani fight the last claimed fix to that point.
I just don't see why they had to fix a fight against someone like Torriani who won 1 fight out of 17. I'd rather think of it as a horrible mismatch against a tomato can. I've seen Herbie Hide and Hasim Rahman have opponents take dives against them but that's not necessarily up to them, it's just that their opponents were professional losers who did not care to take any real damage.
Maybe the Torriani fight was for the kO 2? Oh and sorry the Gorman was also supposedly arranged but not Maloney or Uzcuden. The complete list asks as many questions as it answers. The Stribling fights are down as arranged which was generally believed to be the case at the time.
The question has been asked several times, what was Carnera's most impressive ko after Sharkey, (and Schaaf, if that is counted), and not counting the tko's--I would say it probably is Jack Gross. Jack Gross was 25, carried a 42-3-1 with 27 ko's record into the fight. He had been ranked #9 in one of the monthly Ring rankings in 1929. He was young enough and doing well enough that one would think he would not buy into a dive. According to boxrec, he took the count. mattdonnellon--was this one of the supposed fixes? according to Leon See.
a match well made is a match half won. There is no need to fix them in the hollywood sence. im hiding behind a computer so i can say this. gangsters basicly are parasites they usualy get invited into a business field by a niave legit fool who wants a partner who can intimidate a rival. once they get in its like a rust, you cant cut it out. they take an undeclarable cut from evrything until people go out of business. In boxing its the same thing. gangsters often had a piece of both partys so who do they care who wins? its win - win for them anyway. obviously its well documented deals have been done holywood style but i belive that to be rare. The closest I have heard first hand of this is where an underdog with odds already well aginst him with next to no chance at all was asked if he would go in round 3. the guy refused and was legit kod in round 3 anyway! sharkey was not in shape and carnera was much more up for it, had fought about 10 times more ofen than sharkey had in the past 3 years and jack just could not cope, he was out of his depth.
the thing is if carnera was exposed (and remember he did just as well against joe louis as max baer did) its worth remembering that until that point can anyone blame a ham and egger giving away 80lb for little more than a cab fare for not trying their best? How many klitchko oponenets away from home went a bit limp in germany after finding it tougher than it looked? they dont actualy throw the fight they just quit and can you blame them against silly odds?
Sharkey lived to be 90 something, right up there with Schmeling. I own a book, called "In This Corner" I believe. Lengthy interview with Sharkey. He maintained until the day he died that it wasn't a fix.
I have no trouble believing that the Stribling fights were fixed, the fights ended very suspiciously. Those two fights have always been notable fixes to me. The Bud Gorman fight may have been "arranged" but it could have also been a case of handing a semi-retired fighter who was coming off recent knockout losses a big payday against a rising contender. Gorman surely took the hint, showed up in terrible shape and put up no effort. I think it was less of a tradition then but today's art of handpicking fights that you'll certainly win is almost like fixing fights because there's such a small chance that you'll actually lose. I think that's basically what was done with Carnera, his career was built up and early on he fought tomato cans, clubfighters and washed up opponents who weren't a threat to him. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFS_4SLMfac[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6z6HU7SxD0[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecNNmEGQ9a4[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqzUwukejxs[/ame] Pannell actually drops Wladimir and then realizes he wasn't there to win.
The 1931 fight was mentioned, but Carnera did not do as badly as is being painted here. This is James P Dawson on Carnera the day after the fight: "Carnera showed every requisite of a rising gladiator save schooling. Under wicked left hooks which battered the side of his face out of shape, he kept his poise. Greater than anything, the Italian showed that recommendation of the true fighting man, the spirit, the will and the determination, to go forward in the face of adversity. "Carnera was agile, light as a dancer on his feet, despite his massive frame. He was unerringly accurate, to the consternation of Sharkey and the latter's adherents, in the use of left jab, but he has not the sharpness that goes with power. Carnera's punching skill suffers accordingly, right now. Undoubtedly he will improve in this respect. Then he will be more dangerous, almost unbeatable." ----"almost unbeatable"----hardly a description of an unimpressive fighter. Quotes from New York Times, October 13, 1931, page 31.
Sharkey in traditional fashion lost his cool after Carnera was knocked down and demanded that the referee would stop the fight, saying that he would quit the ring himself if the referee didn't obey his orders. Sharkey was convinced to continue fighting by his manager and he let Carnera back into the fight after that although he still won a clear decision.
I am shocked, shocked, at someone so cynical they would question whether the noble warriors who lost these fights were giving their all.