Should Joe Gans be ranked above Benny Leonard?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Swarmer, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    So you're sold on this being a PARTIAL dive then?;) Kidding. Yes, it would be easier to stay down, but it wouldn't have really convinced the audience. Better to make it look like you're "trying" by rising again.

    Was he hurt at any time? Possibly. McGovern had a legit KO punch from banty all the way up to lightweight. But no featherweight in history is knocking out Joe Gans. Especially not in less than 2 rounds. Bigger (sizewise) KO punchers like Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Eddie Kennedy and Dal Hawkins can't put away Gans in 61 rounds combined, but little Terry McGovern does?? In TWO rounds?

    That's a bit of a stretch for me. And if my guess is correct, it is for you as well :hat
     
  2. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Also keep in mind that Gans was a seasoned pro at this time. I'm sure that he had more than enough experience to be able to clinch and employ other survival techniques from his bag of tricks if he had indeed been hurt.
     
  3. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Gans being hurt looks really legit. It's not only the number KD's but the sloppy way he falls and how any punch hurts his equilibrium. It looks like so many KO's I've seen where the guy has been rabbit punched or hurt with a perfect shot to the temple.

    How he got to that point is a different matter. I believe there was an agreement before the fight, which was known to the sporting set and which ignited the reaction of the Chicago officials. And to me, it looks like McGovern wasn't following the script.
     
  4. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Just because he got hurt by a punch during a thrown fight doesn't mean it wasn't a thrown fight though. Punches hurt. McGovern punches hard. If he hits you, it will hurt.
     
  5. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    I have heard many great things about Gans, and have seen some footage.


    His fight against Kid Herman was when he was much past his prime I believe, yet it was one of the greatest knockouts I have ever seen.
     
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Gans's level of opposition is just ridiculous:

    Elbows McFadden
    Frank Erne
    Jimmy Britt
    Joe Walcott
    Jack Blackburn
    Dave Holly
    Young Griffo
    Bobby Dobbs

    That is just the start.
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    I have it.
    Leonard
    Gans
    Williams
    Duran
     
  8. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  9. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Our rankings are a lot alike. The only difference is that I would sandwich Whitaker between Leonard and Gans.
     
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I would put Duran higher, and certainly Whitaker. Rather that outright rank them in order, I believe we are talking about who belongs in the conversation. And it is a very select group.
     
  11. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Gans fought bigger men as well ... Leonard was exceptional but his physical toughness and ability to take it were not his strong points ...

    As far as the McGovern fight, let's get real. Of course it was a dve.
     
  12. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Duran is justifiable, but Whitaker doesn't have anything close to the same level of LW reign as the big three. Great fighter, but just not as great as those three, in all time or lightweight rankings.

    You shouldn't just be pretty sure.... The referee of the fight doesn't think it was on the level. I think even Gans himself admitted to throwing it.
     
  13. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    It bears little resemblance to outright dives I have seen for the numerous factors I listed above. I am pretty sure it was not on the level but it looks more like a double cross than a dive. For Christ sakes, he hits the canvas half a dozen times and gets hit with monstrous shots. I think there was a lot easier way to take a dive than that.
     
  14. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Purely based on their reign at Lightweight, Gans and Leonard stand clearly above the rest. Only when taking into account exploits at higher weights/against larger opponents do guys like Armstrong, Duran, and Whitaker come into the mix. Although I do believe Duran's Lightweight opposition gets sold short by some.
     
  15. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    This is where i'm at. Duran's reign is sadly short a couple of really stellar challengers in number, but the quality of the opposition is high.