Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Wlad was better than either Liston or Marciano, IMO. For whatever it's worth.

Stylistically, isn't the general consensus that Wladimir in the Brewster fight hadn't grown into the jab and grab technician he'd become later? He was still awkwardly halfway between. He hadn't even fully managed it in Peter 1.

 

Brewster was worse than both Marciano and Liston. Wladmir losing to a guy like that shows how fragile he was. Brewster basically blocked with his face and ran him over.

He still fought on the backfoot and didn't really resemble Liston. Sometimes young Wladmir would let his hands go and could be aggressive, but he wasn't a dominant come forward freight train like Liston.

 

You asked for examples of how Rocky wins with that style as the smaller man. My examples are smaller men with “that style”.


I even demonstrated profusely that it isn’t possible to get exact replicas. So I gave you what you asked for. Smaller men with that style.

I was not providing Sonny Liston type guys…who else is a SonnyListon type guy? Hasim Rahman?

Shall I mention smaller guys that beat Rahman?

 

Absolutely.

 

I would doubt that tbh

 

I certainly wouldn't put Brewster anywhere near them in greatness lists, no.

Brewster wasn't bad, either. He was a solid contender of his era.

Yes, absolutely. Wlad was very fragile. Far more fragile than Liston or Marciano were relative to their era.

Allowing for hyperbole, agreed. Until Wlad collapsed from exhaustion hitting Brewster, essentially.

Young Wlad was pretty aggressive, IIRC. He gradually became less so as he realized that people could murderize his chin.

 

Noted, but I would disagree.

I'd put Marciano and Liston in about the same place, ratings wise. People who value Liston likely beating Marciano may rate Liston higher.

 

I asked for an example of a smaller man using an aggressive come forward style beating an equally aggressive larger man whose also using a come forward style. It was a pretty simple request spelled out in plain English. You didn't give me what I asked for. It's like asking for a burger and you give me a burrito. Wladmir and especially Mathis didn't remotely resemble Liston. I don't remember Liston getting on his toes and circling around his opponent or fighting on the back foot with a cautious game plan.

 

I didn't say he was bad. Just playing tit for tat.

So we agree he can't really be used as a comparison to Liston.

Liston never collapsed from exhaustion, not even as an old man so again, poor comparison. He actually had good stamina for a slugger.

 

Depends what choklab is using him as a comparison point for. Wlad was still aggressive enough that there could be some tactical comparisons to draw.

Whether choklab can make those comparisons successfully, dunno. That's his baby.

 

I like a challenge. Since this is a cool trivia question, let's see...

Dempsey / Firpo?

Duran probably has one.

Henry Armstrong probably does as well.

Louis versus the Baers? (Louis might not be aggressive in exactly the way you mean, though.)

Liston / Young Foreman in sparring.

Tyson probably has somebody, if you consider him "smaller."

Of course, in most of these examples, the smaller guy was also better. You could probably find contender vs contender fights if you dug a bit. Probably not many ATG vs ATG ones, since it's not as common for them to share eras.

 

Sonny turned pro in '53 (could have been earlier if not for prison), Rock retied in '55, anyway they could have actually fought in the time span when they were both active?

 

Liston was not on the map but the time Marciano retired. He would've been massacred.

 

No, not you Cross. I want to hear your reasoning for putting Rocky beside Liston.

 

Firpo was bigger than Dempsey, sure, but he was also a crude caveman even by the standards of that era. No heavy jab, no fundamentals, no murderous body shots or defense whatsoever, just a big dumb brute with a good punch and a good chin.

Duran has beaten many big strong guys like Barkley, but Duran's skill in boxing can fit an encyclopedia while Rocky's could fit on a sticky note.

Hmm, you may have some luck with Armstrong. Now there's a guy who matches Rocky in style and is of a fairly similar caliber of skill and ability.

Wait what? Louis vs the Baer brothers? Are you saying Louis would be Rocky and the Baers are Liston? You might want to rewatch those fights.

For Tyson your best comparisons would have been Ruddock if he didn't abandon his jab and remembered he had a right hand, or Smith if he wasn't just spamming clinches 75% of each round.