Maybe not Toney, but definitely not ugly. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yli8w78mSKE[/ame] or better yet (ca 1:35 in) [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVwLlH7RmHQ[/ame]
As for the thread question: Liston's footwork, skill on the inside, upper body movement, power, killer instinct, reach and jab is what make some rank him in top 5. He doesn't make it there on resume alone.
My list is 90% objectivity. Got to throw the hearsay jargon out the window. Liston isn't a top 5 HW by any good standard. Foreman is faster than Liston. It's not my fault others don't see this. Showing them footage of one fight in comparison is hardly good analysis to prove your point either. Liston is more ponderous. Foreman throws his power shots with a lot into them at times when his man is hurt. But he faster handspeed. Liston body shouldn't let him have faster hands. He looks bulky and cumbersome, and that's how his punches look. Only the shorter and straighter ones are a bit faster. I agree, unfortunately not everyone would agree with a poll on who was faster between Floyd vs Pac so obviously it's a bit more complicated than you would like to believe. Sorry Charlie. He rarely punches with his shoulders. And when he does he's throwing hooks like how he throw that ultra slow combo to finish Williams off in their second fight. It's his shorter and straight punches that are faster, naturally straighter punches are or LOOK that way because they get to the target quicker (Straight line is fastest point to a destination). Now, his sneak uppercut can also be fast. I've never seen him throw uppercuts in session, nor have I seen him throw exclusively hooks in a combination fast. I have with Foreman. Maybe that one person who agreed with me is right, too. You talked up a game of subjectivity and objectivity. And now your act as if 1 fight film is definitive proof. Stop being so silly.
Your certainly entitled to your opinion. What, watching footage of two fighters to try to decide which is faster isn't good analysis? An overwhelming majority would vote one way or the other, and they would probably be right if the members of the Classic forumw re voting. "Punch from the shoulder" is just a boxing turn of phrase which refers to any punch fired straight out in a striaght line. A jab as opposed to a hook. Most people think he's faster than Foreman. I'm one fo them, you disagree, we should really leave it be. No, his shorter punches on the inside look faster, anything where is elbow is crooked is faster, anything longer looks slow because of his exceptional reach, withdrawing the punches makes them look ponderous. I think two objectivelly selected fight films don't lie to the naked eye. There's nothing silly about it.
Does anyone here not like Sonny Liston's jab? I think it is too powerful and it can work against him as it is almost a power shot. It is relativly slow and against a fast mover when he lands the jab knocks the boxer back and allows him space to move.
Maybe you are right. However, i stand by my point that in terms of actual reach and speed, Liston's jab wasn't as great as many regard it.
listons jab worked. he had heavy hands and excelent accuracy. he hurt people at all range as he could shorten his punches well. speed is good. power is good. speed and power is great. none of it is worth **** if you cant land. sonny did land. some guys have a kind of "natural radar" so slow shots still land. foreman had it, liston had it and marciano had it. they have a natural ease of stepping up to a guy and landing blind regardless of what the other guys got. with the naked eye you cant belive the other guy couldnt see it coming but "in there" these guys just step forward, pull the trigger outside the line of vision and it lands. my quible with liston is not to do with his style, or who was faster, the guy was good enough to win when he wanted, its just that he sucked as a champ. And he should not have. never mind who sonny beat on the way up top ten ATGs deliver at the top too.
No, I don't think I am. See above. Classic forum can be wrong, as can I. I've been wrong before. I don't believe I am in this case. Liston can't throw consecutive uppercuts as fast, nor have I seen him mix a combo faster than Foreman. That's one of the slowest, most cumbersome finishes I have ever seen (Besides Modern Heavyweights). Foreman has a 3 inch reach disadvantage. That argument really can't be made here. It is. It's like when a scientist examines 20 plants and make a conclusion on photosynthesis or whatever. You need more data, thousands of plants to ever make an accurate statement. You can show just one fight, but there's no way to give a definitive answer based on why fight. The guy who agreed with me could be one of the only few right. It looked like a lot of the older guys with bad vision voted for Liston. Cheap point, I kid.
I'd say that Liston's jab was more suited to picking apart fighters who came at him or stood in front of him. Watch his late career jabbing clinic against the aggressive "Scrap Iron" Johnson for example. Wepner was cut to bits by the jab.
It is a good jab but I hear many say it was one of the best Heavyweight jabs ever, I disagree slightly.
No doubt. But with Liston's relatively slow footwork, if you ran from him his jab wasn't half as effective. If you stood in front of him, his jab would punish you and it had enough power to push you backwards. Even if you managed to slip the jab, he had his powerful uppercut waiting for you. That's why I believe Liston is just murder against opponents like Frazier, Marciano. It's not like Liston couldn't beat "fleet-footed" opponents but he was often content on simply outpointing them with the jab. It worked but not to the extent it did if he had an opponent coming right at him.
I know that is a solution but i seen the big german gerhard zecht tangle with him head on and ok, liston was too much for him but a beter quality heavyweight would have disorganised and hurt liston. whithusrst was a bit slippery but he had his moments where he went at liston and he made an impresion. Again a beter heavyweight would have buit on that. I know what your saying but even ali in the last compleated round stood with liston the 1st time and sonny became slowly discouraged with each landed shot. I wish liston fought chuvalo or bonanvena. He never did fight too many swarmers. maybe he liked boxers like folly?