Hold on -- Hold on -- Going off topic (although all interesting stuff.) Can anyone help me with the original post? How did Carbo take 52%? Palermo and Vitale 12% and Barone 24% of Liston? Who was responsible for what?
because that was never official. Thats just an example of people outside of boxing (journalists) trying to make sense of nonsense. The authoritys couldnt even keep track on who was in charge. there were many debates in articles at the time where nobody could agree who was officialy listons manager, and liston himself was under presure to get rid of mobbed up managers -like he could do that! the compramise was the mob put forward all kinds of business men to carry the can for them. so last week this guy "sold" his percentage of listons contract and another piece of crap "bought" it and another guy sold part of his percantage to another two guys, it was all bull****. It never added up, but liston was a great fighter and fans wanted to see his career progress so eventualy people stopped wondering what part of sonny liston belonged to sonny liston.
Hilarious how Marciano was not only mob controlled but still took on easy fights. So the mob had to make 3rd tier fighters go down for him? Yet he is still great
In general betting works like this. some kind of event is going to take place, let's say the event is Clay and Liston. The general public doesn't know who Clay is but they know who Liston is, so they bet on him heavy to win against some unknown fighter, as bookies don't want to loss their shirts regardless of the outcome, the more people who bet on Liston to win, the worse the odds get, so instead of say betting $1,000 and getting a $1,000 if you win, perhaps you would only get $100 if you won. Now the flip side of this is that if you bet on Clay to win, you'd get very good odds because you'd be in the minority of those who are betting on the fight, now of you bet on Clay and could fix the outcome, bingo lots of $$$ to be made. But at the expense of who, you may be asking, and the answer is it would be at the collective expense of the people who bet on Liston, not realizing "the bear" who was a household name, was ordered to loose the fight. So average Joe gets fleeced but because he didn't know the fight was fixed is none the wiser and is likely in a pub somewhere getting drunk crying in his beer about the money he lost on the fight. Meanwhile the people fixing the fight may have been on who would win, may have bet on the round the fight was going to be stopped, may have bet on whether or not Clay would go the distance in the fight..etc, they may even being using others to bet on their behalf, if they want to stay completely under the radar screen, which they're going to want to do, because if average joe finds out the fights fixed, he's going to stop betting..since he doesn't have the inside scoop as to what the outcome is going to be.
Liston just quit. The first clay fight he tried to win but got beat up and became tired because he had only fought 2 rounds in 2 years. 1961 liston did not fight a rated guy. Then including floyds two one round non eforts liston went 2-2 in title fights (3 in one round) up until 1965. He just could not cope with a live world class fighter at that time. In 5 years he had just 6 rounds of competative fighting. No doubt he wasnt happy either, sonnys heart wasnt in it against Ali, just like pattersons heart wasnt ever really in it against Liston.
I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, but you still havent told me how the bookies are in on it. I perfectly understand how odds work and how betting on one manipulates other prices (unfortunately i know too much if you know what i mean). What you have explained above would equally happen if the bookies were not aware of a fix, which, to be honest, i really dont think happened. Clay beat him fairly and squarely in my book:good EDIT; just had an afterthought, and this is what makes me think the bookies were not involved. If Clay is 8-1, then your looking at liston being roughly 1-3. If they knew,or even had a sniff, they were gonna take a hit on Clay winning, then they would IMO shorten the odds ever so slightly on Sonny to maybe entice the late money. Im not talking a big difference, but to a big punter 4/6 is a helluva lot more enticing than 1/3
I should clarify that I'm not saying for sure bookies were involved in any of these fixes but since the majority of bookies in the New York area were mafia controlled at the time, it wouldn't surprise me.
Your comment makes no sense to me. If they can find away to make an easy buck..they'll do it. By defination they're organized crime families, who definately had their hands in professional boxing in some capacity, certainly a least a couple of fighters have admitted they were told to throw fights, that's common knowledge.
There are several ways mobsters and promoters can benefit from fixing the title fight. Gambling is just one. There was more money to be made from Clay being champion rather than Liston. Clay was the million dollar baby.
Liston just quit. nothing was fixed. sonny tried as best he could first time, shot his bolt and was punished then quit before he was KO'd. the second time Liston did not want to be there -just like patterson the second time against liston. only the crazy rematch clause put them there. Liston got up, proving he had not thrown the fight, walcott blew the count, but bottom line is Listons heart was not in it. He just wanted to go home, sonny did not want to be the fighter he was anymore because last time he got hurt and clay was too good for him. people accept durans no mas, it was the same for Liston. He did not want the humiliation. why would the mob make anymore money out of clay than liston? Do you think they cashed all their chips in on liston losing and walked away from boxing just because clay was the champion? you think that was the mobs pay off, one big windfall? Like they retired from boxing? The mob didnt let go of anything that is still earning.
thats right, i agree with you, but thats small change crap for the movies or smaller fights down the card. when it comes to world title fights the mobs share continues with the title not the fighter. They do not need to fix title fights because just like don king with his "options clauses" they continue to have shares with everyone involved in title fights regardless. If each rated contender is forced into having "a partner", each champion already has "a partner", the controling promoters have "partners", The guy with the lease on the arena, entire town, casino or whatever are all forced to have "partners" then the mob has an intrest in the entire fight game. They dont need to ensure who actualy wins the title fights if they effectivly own the title, the promotion, all the managers, etc etc etc.
As champion,Liston QUIT WHILE SITTING ON HIS STOOL in Miami in 1964....and did a WWF/WWE style acting job while rolling around on the floor in Maine in 1965...
it was a quitjob not a fix the first time. liston still got up the second time after playacting but he never wanted that fight. its not a fix.