And well done on a great thread guys. A real delight compared to what is on the general on this topic.
The General Forum v The British Forum, fits nicely into an old thread of mine...:yep Prime Steak v Corned Beef...only one winner all day long, British Forum by a devastating KO...:deal
Oscar was not on that level of Jones, Mayweather, Whitaker, but he was on the level of Shane, Tito, Morales IMO, its just that the aforementioned were/are exceptional. Oscar is unquestionably an elite level fighter for me, I mean how can you not rate him at the highest level? he should of got the decision over Tito and Mosley 2, has a win over Vargas, and no matter what people say about the Whitaker fight, it was not a robbery, infact it was an extremely close fight that could of gone either way. Oscar obliterated other good/solid fighters like Hernandez, Ruelas, Gatti, Carr, Chavez, Camacho, Rivera. I feel I give them full credit to, just it gets me they way people act like he did something scientific/mythical to change the fight cause he is some demi god, when the truth is, the change in the fight culminated with what Oscar stopped doing, now whilst you give him credit, Oscar had a hand in that, now you might say, well you asserted Oscar has always done this, which is a fair point, but does the adapating he did in this fight, translate to him doing it against a better than Oscar, who does not fall asleep behind the wheel? cause that would be a better test of that "scientific" adapating that some his fans eulogize over. As I say, I think its more about the knock on effect, its one thing giving credit for adapting, but you have to take into consideration who he was fighting ,who he was adapting against, now thats not taking away credit imo, its being realistic about his ability to adapt to someone without these particular flaws, guys who are greater fighters than the likes of Zab/Oscar. As I say, of coarse he can adapt, and gets credit for that, but it goes from, to over-exaggerating his adaptability with his fans, like the opponent did not cooperate what so ever. I personally did'nt see that, infact Manny Steward commented on that when Lampley suggested maybe that was the reason he kept the jab in its holster, he said I dont think that has been much of an issue as Floyd hasn't really been countering over it effectively. See thats the problem I have with Floyd fans, they will try to assert stuff that is not, did not happen. I have a pair of eyes, and what I saw was Shane Mosley with little to no power on his punches, and a guy whos mouth was wide open, now if that is not gassed, I dont know what is.
Shane definitely gassed. Plus his coordination was all to hell. He hurt Floyd then got tied up, didn't step back and use his reach and then was gasping for breath. It was a solid win, but it wasn't just Floyd who made him look bad. Shane just doesn't have it anymore. Not to say Floyd wouldn't have beaten him, but still...
I said i don't rate him as a top level operator and i don't. I've said this for years on classic. I'm not knocking his achievements at all. I'm saying that if you watch him operating in a ring, and you compare him to the toplevel operators on a technical level, well you're the one who's claiming to have a pair of eyes so i'll leave you to that. Well let's nip one thing in the bud, I'm no Floyd fan. Nice how it appears that i'm some biased fan now because i'm pointing out positives. Like i said, i'm not into any of that stuff. Oscar is winning and then Floyd starts winning so we'll attribute that to a mistake on Oscar's behalf? Not for me, in any fight ever. Imagine if you won a fight and then everyone was talking about it was the fault of your opponent, that would annoy the life out of you. I watched the fight, and i've given my assessment. Oscar was Oscar and Floyd was Floyd, that's my personal opinion, and i think there's sufficient evidence to support this as i've mentioned. I already did give clear consideration to who he was fighting in my previous post, i commented on that. I wasn't commenting on how that relates to his being able to adapt against better fighters, i don't think i indicated that i was doing either. If we are going to discuss his capability to that then all i can say is that i have a hunch that he will be able to. There's no evidence to support that he will be able to, or that he can't, because it hasn't happened yet. I just have the opinion of a mortal man on that one. I don't believe this applies to me Again, the references to Floyd fans i believe do not apply to me. Floyd was using his right hand in the middle of the ring over Oscar's left guard, a culmination of that and Oscar's questionable stamina resulted in Oscar not threatening with the jab in the second half of the fight. That's my strong opinion on what happened, i thought it was blatant til now to be honest. Mosley had his biggest round in round two, then he gasses? I think that's silly. I'll accept that he was tired later on in the fight though, because a) he was not in his prime (which i said initially) and b) he was shipping punches and was outclassed.
When does Shane Mosley back up using his reach? Give me seven or so incidents where he has done that in his lengthy career. That's not his style. The man has always been a high tempo fighter who goes for ko's and works the body etc. It's like saying why didn't Joe Frazier use lateral movement to offset George Foreman's heavy hooks? He doesn't do that. Mosley wasn't in his prime, one implication of that was that he wasn't going to be able to fight at a high tempo for twelve rounds when under pressure. Another thing that implicated that was that he was getting his arse kicked. Let's not act like Floyd was lucky or something, **** is embarrassing in my humble opinion.
You cent deny putting yourself in the firing line will grant you more and better countering opportunities. Yes yourabove statement is correct but with Pacman making him miss will be almost impossible as he tend to flurry with 4 punch combos, not go in with 1-2 punches. If Marquez had fought a more cautious Mayweather-eque counterpunching style he would not have had a chance in the fight, there is no way he would have got the decidion. Now I know Mayweather is a class above but what Im saying is his usualy ultra cautious counterpunching style will not win him a decision against Pacman. His gameplan for a brawler like Hatton for example probably wont work as Manny has a better chin, a huge output and endless stamina. What Im saying is there are going to be have to times where Mayweather is gonig to have to stand his ground and fight, trying to fight off the backfoot of the relentess Manny will only exaust him and not win him the fight. He has to be prepared to stand his ground and maybe take one or two shots to land solid hurtful counters on Manny.
Hatton was a bit of a spaz though and is a different fighter. Ricky Hatton had a huge ego, thinking he could get in close and rough Floyd up. Floyd outclassed him and bullied him on the inside and showed Hatton tricks (dirty or otherwise) that he´d never seen. Pacquiao isn´t going there unless Floyd holds him a lot. Pacquiao is most devastating at mid range, he needs space to get his punches off unlike Hatton so the subtleties are quite a bit different in matching this one up. Pacquiao´s pressure is going to be a lot different to Hatton and Castillo, thats why its not plain sailing to analyze this one.
Shane lost the fight in Round 2 when he landed his big shot and it did not put a dent in PBF...:deal It was always going to be PBF's fight but that shot was the begining of the end, it broke his heart...:deal