This is why I posted this in here and not the general; a proper debate has ensued :good I've never considered Marquez a defensive fighter. He's an aggressive fighter who doesn't just chuck, he waits until he can land counters, but doesn't too much to avert being hit. TFFP, I would also say Duran was more complete, but Pac has blinding speed. He also has that animalistic fighting spirit, like the Panamanian great (no.6 on my alltime list) Duran IMO is the greatest fighter I've ever seen, he had nothing missing from his game. Their are two more in my top five that I consider aesthetically astounding too (Ezzard Charles and Ray Robinson) and I consider Henry Armstrong (no.2) one of the most complete offensive fighters ever; for me though, Duran is the overall most impressive and awe-inspiring fighter I've ever seen. Shaunster; I think the Judah fight is the perfect comparison; people say 'Floyd figured him out down the stretch', well, two things; Judah is **** down the stretch. Always has been. Pac is better than Judah in every aspect, including the early rounds. He also has so much more to his game, how anyone can see Floyd 'doing a Judah' or using that fight as an example of his ability to adapt I don't know. Gooners, I've really appreciated your input into this thread: In terms of me underrating Floyd, you make a fair point, but I don't think I'm underrating him, I'm rating him fairly. He hasn't done anything wrong, there are just so many fighters who have done more and done it more impressively IMO. And one of them happens to be a viable opponent for him :yep
Okay, you're obviously sure about this, what does he have? His left hand is extremely limited, nice jab and the occasional sharp left hook, but he's hardly Kalambay. The man with the big arsenal is clearly Pac. This is the kinda' post I started this thread to laugh about; no real explanation, just assumption. Look at the pages before and how other posters have defended their case, giving examples and analysis. This is a general forum post, do better (if you can)
Fair enough, I guess where I was coming from more than anything, was when I heard you commenting about him in the Whitaker-Pac thread, then when I heard you say this..... I felt you might be underrating him a bit, particularly given that you could in degrees, level some of those criticisms against Manny, more so lately, although I if you say you just dont rate him as! highly as others, then I guess thats fair.
Agree 100%. Difference being is that Pac has performed in a more impressive manner. Bar the Mosley fight, Floyd has ponced around, and I personally think he was very underwhelming in the De La Hoya fight in particular (not that I rate Pacs win too highly, Floyd fought a better version but still an average one) and that he has done much more throughout his career when he was a limited fighter. Floyd is always supposed to be supremely skilled; I don't think he is the sum of his parts as I said previously. Otherwise he wouldn't just be winning shut outs, he'd be doing them in a far less safety-first manner. It's fine to say 'thats how he operates' but I don't think it's a)particularly impressive considering what so many other fighters have done b) the kind of operator required to beat a true ATG who happens to be in his prime. it's not just Pac; there are greater fighters than Pac, and some lesser fighters that I'd pick to beat Floyd pretty convincingly. He has some brilliant tools to cause Pac some serious problems, but is not consistent enough to beat him (IMO) My main problem is his coasting back to the ropes. He will not be able to pick off Pacs combos/avoid all the shots/land enough in return to keep spinning off of him and re-setting centre ring. And that brings us to centre ring; great jab aside I can't see Floyd being constantly being able to dictate the pace there, as he did against Mosley. Pac is too strong and varied, and Floyds default setting when under pressure is to coast back, frustrate his opponent and re-set, wait until his opponent tires out/gets wild and then to really start stamping his authority on the fight. With a true 12 round fighter with a great engine like Pac, I fail to see how Floyd can look as flawless as he usually does.
Well Mayweather came back into the fight in the 5th round. That's pretty early to be based on just Judah folding down the stretch. I'd say Judah has focus issues, but to lose focus after the 4th round where he was doing fairly well would be a bit strange. Not saying it means anything in relation a Pac/Floyd fight (which would a whole other kettle of fish), but Floyd has shown the character and focus to overcome a fighter who is giving him trouble. A bit as well in the Mosley fight. Nassim's tactic worked very well in the second round, jab to the body to lower Mayweather's guard, followed by the right over the top. But once they had used it (can't remember if it worked once or twice, think it was just once), Mayweather changed his hands and stopped falling for it.
You could say the same for Floyd. And he has still struggled against some, Castillo, De La Hoya for instance.
I see what your saying, but I think you have to take into account, that by the same token, the fact he throws so little, and is! so cautious, and is still! able to win, is testament to how good he at what he does, simply because he leaves no margin for error due to the few punches he throws. I mean when you think about all the fighters who have fell victim to bum decisions, and you think how low Mayweather's punch rate is, its astonishing that he has never fell victim to one of those decisions, which is either testament to how precise he is with his game plan, how accurate he is with his punches, or its just an amazing coincidence that he has never been a victim or poor judging, cause there are some judges out there that will score a fight on willing, who is pressing the fight, irrespective of whether the fighter is landing. Who specifically? I dont think he will sit on the ropes, shell up against Pac, and suspect I he knows he wont be able to do that. Pac will bust his chops if does that. I dont think Mayweather will fight from centre ring, infact I think if he does come foward, hold his feet, he will only do it if he can get Pac on the backfoot, were by he can control/dictate from behind the stick, and look to counter punch off the front font, time Pac as he comes in. I dont think he will look flawless, matter of fact I anticipate he will get hit more consistently in this fight, that he has ever been, particularly with the left hand. I think Pac will break his rhythm momentarily when he starts to tire from using his legs so much, but I just think Mayweather will use his legs enough to offset Pac's offense consistently enough so Pac is not able to be as good consistent with his offense, although I guess you might say, thats the type of thing which could leave Mayweather vulnerable to getting a bad decision, if Pac is constantly coming foward, making the fight, breaking his rhythm up momentarily, landing hard shots when he does land. Agree with the bolded.
True, like I said a fight against Pac would be completely different. Neither the Judah fight nor the Mosley fight will push him as hard as a fight against Pac will. However that works both ways, Pac has never shown it against a fighter like Floyd either. It here being the ability to break down a good defensive fighter and a counter puncher. I'm kind of leaning with gooners here. How much has Pac improved since the Marquez fight really, or is it just getting stronger coming up in weight and not running into somebody like that again. But it's hard to imagine (somebody shutting him down) when he's looking so awesome offensively recently. I'm swaying a bit after the weekend, once again it was an astounding display.
I think watching the Cotto, Marquez 2 fights back to back, would leave you with more questions than answers regarding whether Manny could handle the best counter puncher in the game. I never thought Morales was a particularly smart fighter, that he did not have many wrinkles to his game, but he still had success timing Pac, controlling him with the jab, now whilst that was a long time ago, and Pac has probably improved since then, its still sticks in my mind that someone with the limited Boxing skills of Morales, was able to counter him on the way in. Infact I guess you could level the same thing at Cotto, that he is not a particularly great Boxer either, yet he still managed to counter punch Pac effectively on the way in. when I think that the Marquez rematch was in 08, I cant say as I think Manny has made that many strides foward in dealing with a fighter who is going to look to counter punch, time his attacks.
Bing's post showed there you can make 2 interest points without having to type the complete works of Budd Shulberg. BOTH pac and Floyd have been guilty of fighting guys where both stylistic and weight variables are stashed in thier favour. You can't mention Floyd fighting the grossly under-sized JMM without adding the appalling treatment of Cotto, then champion, having to lose extra weight to accomodate pac. Likewise it wouldn't be right to only criticise the Pac-De la hoya debacle, with Oscar disturbingly weight-drained and not pass judgement on Floyd waiting for Mosely to be 38 and inactive for a year before that fight was made. Stylistically they're BOTH guilty too. For every castillo, gatti and hatton on floyds hit-list theres a clottey, margarito and yes Ricky on Manny's. The bullish come forward easy to hit style of fighters has made Floyd look a $100m plus over the years but how will he fare against not just plodding aggression but calculated and ruthless aggression? Like-wise how many times recently would it be appropriate for Freddie Roach to tell Manny at the end of a round 'This guy cant fight on the back-foot' Cotto (God bless the true warrior) cant, Clottey can sure tuck up but wasnt willing to risk worse punishment by throwing too much back and Tony Margarito's fighting philosophy couldnt be further from Wille Pep's or Pernell Whitakers. How will Manny deal with knowing his flurries arent landing like he's used to and dealing with an elite (in todays crop of fighters flea) counter-puncher? Can Floyd beat Manny? Damn straight he can. Manny wont be landing 5/6 or 8/9 punches per flurry and getting out to look upon he's bloodied prey. He'll likely land 1/2 with Floyd's elusive if not pleasing on the eye rolls and feints before Floyd ties it up and make the fight ugly. With the stylistic match-up and pondering over who's quicker, stronger etc it often goes forgotten how efficient and clever Floyd is inside. If Manny's missing, getting pot-shotted, tied up, getting repeated dirt blows on the refs blind-side you gotta think he'll get frustrated and it will sure as hell mess his fluidity up. This aint gonna be the borderline entertaining Mayweather that beat a tired great in Sugar Shane, he'll revert to the cerebral efficient Floyd that has the quickness of hand and feet to all but match Manny and STEAL rounds Leonard-Hagler style. The $100m purse, the EVENT that would kick-start boxing's spluttering motor and define the sport's era. The 2 very best fighters of the generation, pantomime hero and villain both with question marks in thier respective styles that just happen to be the strengths of their prospective foe. That's why this fight has to happen and why even the most ludicrous of posters on here cant simply be 100% right... or indeed wrong. Too many variables, too much ability on offer- let's hope not too much to make the dream match just that. A dream
Great post. If Floyd wins without brawling, it's going to be bull**** if people don't give him credit. People act like the only way to win should be by being aggressive. I just hope that people aren't hypocritical and if they apply that logic they do so with every other defensive minded fighter in history. I've got to say that this talk of Floyd 'poncing' round is laughable. Some other ponces of note- Hilario Zapata Willie Pep Tommy Loughran Ivan Calderon I know I'm gping to be hit with facts about small details about how Zapata and the likes were nothing like Floyd, but **** that, they've been very defensice minded at times if we're going to be picky. Defensive specialists are ****in quality, as are their offensove counterparts. And anyway, Floyd is not a one dimensional defensive minded fighter a la Cory Spinks. What a terrible guy Floyd is for actually using his footwork and defensive skills, ponce *******.
Personally PBF doesn't want it with PAC he knows he will b in a 12 round war. The power, speed and all out aggression will be to much for him. I reckon he will wait till PAC mans retired for 6 months then call him out.