For Floyd to win this fight he will have to do something different - it won't be a 35+ plodder coming at him, which frankly Mosely looked like after round 2 and Marquez looked like the whole fight. Against Hatton and Oscar Floyd was fairly static with his defence - relying on reflexes and shoulder roll to avoid punches, but against someone like Pac who has excellent movement to create punch angles as well as the southpaw stance and exceptional hand speed, I cannot see that type of defence being very effective - Pac will land punches. His best bet is to clinch up and make the fight dirty up close rather than rely on his defence IMO
Thanks mate and yea Floyd skill set does make the use of the word 'poncing' slightly flippant. Even flea himself has stated that Floyd's skills are better than his opponent level and even as a fan ive been frustrated that we didnt see him put them quick hands and smart footwork to use against Mosley at LW, Cotto at LWW or WW and Tony Margarito all of which were fights Floyd would have the edge going in particularly stylistically. That being said I think its degrading to the fighters he has beat to say that even if the weights/timing favoured Floyd that Gatti, Corrales, Castillo, Hatton, Judah, JMM, ODH and Mosely arent good names on your win-list. Thats WIN list flea, you gotta beat the guy in front of you in my book not just have him next to an 'L' on your record Cant help but admire pacmans recent tear through everyone he's faced of late but as we know its 1 thing to walk through guys who wont throw anything off the back foot and doing against 1 of the top counter-punchers today. Im interested to hear who of todays active fighters is a more skilled counter-puncher. Im talking the quickness of feet and hands, ability to make the guy miss, accuracy of shots... I mean he's not untouchable of course but rarely is Floyd troubled and when he is ala Mosely fight he controlled the situation and dominated the fight. I noticed someone say Floyd is able to adapt when troubled, i wouldnt say we've seen too much of that. Mainly because he's so effective at what he does. This would have to play on Manny's mind when all these other world class fighters are getting hurt, dropped, cut, marked up and Floyd's still rolling that shoulder-making him miss-and boxing dirty on the inside. Of course you can flip and as I say I dont think we have seen Floyd make too many alterations... can he? If Manny is connecting more than id expect in his combinations, if he does have the edge in speed and can get out of range before Floyd can pot-shot; not just will Floyd change but can he?? I think Manny's getting the praise he deserves because of the way he's running through guys. Even taking weight farces and stylistic advantages you cant help but be impressed with how he's moved up and taken out some great fighters. I dont, however, think Floyd gets his dues when imo he's taken a similar stance when chosing opponents ie has advantages like Manny and beats most of them comfortably albeit in a less aesthically pleasing way. Great match-up, awesome fight if it can be made. Its quality threads and posts on this subject from boths sides of the coin that bring me back to this place :good
but he was the only fight for him @ 140 cos tzyu didnt want any of him. after that he moved up to WW and fought 2 champions at that weight.
Fair enough. But I'm not going to say 'well I'm give him the credit he would get for fighting Tszyu because Kosta apparently didn't want to fight him' and neither will I give him the credit most do for beating Baldomir and Judah when, linear title or not, the former was completely average and the latter lost to the aforementioned completely average fighter. I will say this has been a really good thread: I'm glad to see most now agree that Floyd, despite his ability, hasn't done much to warrant such a lofty ranking. I understand that aesthetically he appears nigh on unbeatable (at least by the current crop of fighters) but, IMO, as I have previously stated, Pac has more tools to beat Floyd than vice versa.
1. Exactly. I wouldn't have any means to call him into question if he had done this, and Pac would be snapping at his heels trying to prove his dominance and Floyd would already be a bona fide great. 2. Definitely very good, but not spectacular, and not worthy of the 'he will school Pac' or 'he is a top twenty alltime fighter' that I've heard bandied about. As I have stated previously, Floyd has done nothing offensive. Just that there are many other 'greats' who have done much more. If it's just wins, fair enough, there are still **** loads more accomplished fighters in terms of quality wins. 3. Can't help but admire Floyds outboxing of everyone he's faced, but as we know it's one thing to outmanouver guys who are one-paced and straight-on and another doing it agaisnt the best offensive force today and one of the P4P hardest punchers. 4. Hopkins, although he's clearly on his way out. He's displayed it against a higher calibre of opposition throughout his career and has still done it way past his physical prime. I take everything into account when judging a fighters ability. They are my responses to you, a quality post mate and thanks for joining the debate:good This forum takes a nice dump over the General:deal
I cant see why you'd say that, maybe I should of said, best pot shotter in the game. Maybe that is why you dont rate him as! highly as others, maybe you are putting a pot shotter (Mayweather), in the same category, as say a Kalambay, a Whitaker, who were more than potshotters, they were true counter punchers, that fair to say?
Great thread. I suppose I'm in the minority in that I would expect Floyd to win the fight should it ever happen. I agree the Pac's resume at this stage is better but I still believe Floyd would win. I just see Floyd's style being a nightmare for Pacman. Pac's most recent success against the bigger men and particularly Hatton, Cotto, Clottey and especially Margo has been based on those guys coming forward at him in straight lines, offering him very little in the way of subtle movement being very easy to hit. Floyd will not simply keep coming forward - he will not be there for Pac to slug away at in front of him, offering little movement. Pac wants to engage all the time and nearly everyone he's fought recently have obliged (with the exception of Clottey) but Floyd most certainly won't and it will be interesting to see how Pac would handle it. In comparison to his recent success against the bigger men, Pac hasn't always had it his own way against the quicker, more agile opponents at the lower weights who give him movement problems. Floyd is super quick. Pac isn't the most difficult to hit but when you add into the mix Floyd's handspeed and his counter punching ability I believe this would give Pac the fits that the bigger, but slower punchers have struggled to do. My argument is fairly simple I know but sometimes we can over-complicate these things! Manny has done well against guys recently who are markedly slower than him and I think he will find it far tougher against someone posing him genuine movement and angle problems and counter punching with supreme accuracy. I could see Pac getting more and more frustrated as the fight goes on and Floyd winning about 115-113. Based on their records, Pac wins. Based on their styles I think Floyd shades it.
By the way, I'm no Pac hater, I think he's a sensational fighter and I love watching him. Watching him at his best on Sunday morning was the perfect antidote to the poison that was Saturday night's farce :good
Whereas you can concentrate on the difficulties Oscar gave Floyd in the first half of the fight, in the interest of objectivity you can also give credit to Floyd's adjustments mid-fight. Mid-fight adjustments are highly commendable in my book, they are not the same as being a versatile fighter who can devise a successful gameplan which is different from one fight to another. Doing it in the middle of an actual fight that is not going your way is something i praise whenever i see it, even of the fighter maybe shouldn't have even been in a losing situation in the fiirst place. Some points i'd like to make- ----You can then say that if Oscar at that stage of his career is giving Floyd a hard time then what would he do to him in his prime? He'd surely win. ----You can also say, what is stopping Floyd from simply showing versatility in the face of adversity even against a prime Oscar, and offsetting him. Oscar was never near stopping or hurting Floyd seriously in the actual fight they had, so there are no grounds whatsoever for claiming Oscar would stop him in his prime on the strength of his performance in their real bout. ----My personal opinion is that as an operator Oscar has never been as good as Mayweather. By the way Flea, saying that 'all those fighters got involved at times' is highly wack for me, Mayweather has 'got involved' as well. He also has wins that are ridiculously slept on from his earlier days as well. People act like Corrales wasn't rated above him when he fought him. Taking advantage of hindsight is a joke. But for the record, i wouldn't give a **** if a fighter came about now and achieved goat status by being purely defensive, if he's winning i give him respect, i'm never budging on that.
I think i understand though Flea. Some great fighters who were capable of winning a shut-out in a cautious manner, if they were faced with a lesser foe, they 'took out the trash' so to speak, ie show the gulf in class, rather than just winning. Robinson would do that a lot. And it bothers you that Mayweather is mentioned alongside those fighters for ability, when he doesn't do that. To his credit though, he did take out the trash against the likes of N'Dou, Hatton (who is a good fighter) and Manfredy. Personally i don't differentiate between methods of wining, but i see your sentiment mate.
This sounds like your referring to when Manny's opponent has the centre of the ring, is putting Manny on the backfoot. I dont think Mayweather is anything like Marquez in terms of, when you enter mid range, jump in, in Pac's case, that Mayweather is a counter puncher who puts his counter punches together in combination, I still think he might be a singles man. I think the above could be a potential advantage and disadvantage, because whilst its better to control Pac with singles, IE a jab, as it gives him less leads to work any offense off, Pacquiao when he feels he needs to change things, can neglect getting hit and just jump in anyway, in an effort to try and shake you outta that rhythm. Whilst you'll still be able to hit him when he does this, you might have to throw more than single counters to keep him off, cause once he jumps, whether he gets hit or not, he is going to try and go to work, now because he is already in range to do that, you have to stop him, now the best way to stop him, dictates that you counter in combination, not singles, which is why Marquez was so effective. Marquez's bread and butter is counter in combination, but Mayweather counters in singles imo, or 1 & 2's, he(Mayweather) essentially counters to disengage you, not to demand respect so you dont!! keep attacking him that way, only Marquez does imo, which is what made Pac more apprehensive about jumping in with that straight left, and even when he got into range, Marquez would fight him off by throwing those counters in combination. I think Pac gets more apprehensive about throwing when he is being countered, which means he is not as!! consistent with his offense, but if he's falling behind, needs to shake you outta that rhythm, he will throw caution to the wind, irrespective of whether he gets hit, only I dont think he will do that consistently!!, he will just use that as a ploy to shake you outta your rhythm, see if he can change the fight, only if he cant, those attacks might become a bit more sporadic, so my point still stands about him not being as consistent when getting hit, although he is not averse to resorting to that to change things. The post below relates to when Manny is on the offense, not on the backfoot like the above. Most of Manny's offense is about disorganization imo, which is where the speed, southpaw style, combination punching factors in, however he doesn't actually set much up, simply because you have to have a jab to set your offense up. The only other way to set your offense up, is to draw the opponents lead, then use your legs to make angles to punch off, essentially working your offense of your defense, but as I say, Manny does not have the ability to set up his offense imo. I think thats why Manny is vulberable to getting countered on the way, he just jumps in and tries to bang you with the left hand, then when/if he connects, he is able to put punches together, and his speed, southpaw style can disrgonaze the opponent, but this ties into what I said to Flea Man in an earlier post, Manny can only disorganize and switch angles on you (like he did to Cotto)to mount another attack, if he has managed to pin you down with that first punch, but because that first punch is usually not a set up punch, its a power punch (a straight left), he cant put those type of combo's on you if you can avoid that left hand, cause that is his set punch, only it shouldn't be, his set punch should be a jab, but he doesn't have one, so has to resort to this, which is why he will struggle to pin Mayweather down to get those combinations off consistently. Only way Manny will get off consistently imo, is if Mayweather stands still, is not able to avoid that left hand (his set punch)consistently, but I dont think Mayweather will have to avoid it exclusively, he can make Manny reluctant to throw as often by counter punching him when he tries that, that will make him apprehensive not to throw as much, which again, ties in with what I was talking about with Flea Man, Flea Man said something along the lines of, Manny does not stop throwing when he gets hit, but he does, I thought this was very evident in the JMM rematch. Floyd will be bringing the counter right uppercut into play when Manny shoots that left hand imo. IMO Boxing aint about putting your things on the opponent, its about getting from A to B to do that, which is precisely why Margo got hammered, he does not set up his offense. Two things you need against Mayweather (1) a jab to pin him down, to bring your other punches into play (2) a good defense as your role foward, Manny has neither imo.