The chin and defensive skills of Joe Louis

That sounds interesting, can you share that post?

 

Absolutely, but you expect key metrics to change when a fighter steps up in opposition.

When a fighter starts meeting men in the top ten, their KO% falls off very rapidly, unless you are dealing with a once in a generation finisher.

By the same token Louis's punch resistance appeared to be immaculate, until he ran into Schmeling's overhand right.

Now you say that Louis was down 10 times, but you fail to allow that 7 of those knockdowns occurred against Schmeling, Walcott and Marciano.

You also fail to allow that half of these knockdowns woudl have been avoided if he had retired before the Walcott fights.

Doesn't that point to the number of knockdowns reflecting his level of opposition?

So we seem to have agreed a lock for top ten, and arguably at the lower end of the top five.

 

Well if he’s so great … and he’s No. 2 on my list too … why obsess so hard about this?

 

I agree with Schmeling. Sharkey is debateable.

 

Not necessarily arguing one way or another, but some random musings: -

It’s interesting that when a fighter is heavily felled but arises and recovers very quickly - the dramatic effect of the punch combined with the fighters subsequent recuperation can often enhance the impression of that fighter’s chin - sometimes leaving a greater impression than if the punch didn’t drop or so much hurt said fighter in the first place.

Surviving the Shavers knock down alone, Holmes garnered a lot of credit for having a great chin and I’m certainly not arguing against that as one way to perceive a great chin - there is obvious merit to that perception.

Recuperative powers sufficiently reside in the realm of physiological attributes - as much initial punch resistance upon impact.

But then the much less defensively adept Cobb absorbed numerous flush shots from Earnie - but was never dramatically hurt let alone put down.

As such, it would be possible to reason that Holmes himself perhaps should be rated more than just 1 point below a chin like Cobb’s.

Shavers dropped Larry like a dead man - but he didn’t come close to doing same to Tex, (nor several others he hit with his absolute best) - and he hit Tex with a lot more flush shots than he hit Larry with.

An older Ali also took a lot more flush shots from Earnie than Larry did - but somehow stayed upright through the whole 15 rounds.

The literal, natural physical make up of the chin isn’t the only factor as to how much a punch might affect a fighter.

Neck muscles, natural or purposefully developed, can decrease the snap/twist effect on the head from a punch.

Those muscles can also decrease the perception of a how powerful a punch is - not just for the fact of not hurting the recipient but also for the less dramatic snap or twist of the head - how much a head shifts from a punch goes a long way in implying its power.

Earnie was shifting Cobb’s head with his shots but not in way that many other fighters heads might’ve twisted/snapped from those same punches.

Ali admitted to being out on his feet on several occasions during different fights. Of course he didn’t go down or perhaps not even buckle.

However, if Ali was genuine re that claim, then his chin, unbeknownst to observers, was partially dented and he was well and truly buzzed but his legs held out - and Ali did have tremendously powerful legs in their own right.

A guy like Hearns could stutter across the ring like a new born deer whilst still being fully cognisant - it was very accurate to observe and say that Tommy’s pipe cleaner legs sometime betrayed him.

So when we say “chin” it’s impossible to shave that definition right down to the sheer physical attributes of the mandible - there’s a lot more that can and does come into play.

PS - after such a waffle, I forgot to give my rating for Joe Louis, 7.5 - 8.

 

OK, so perhaps take that logic to its inevitable conclusion?

Two of Louis's ten knockdowns came against Marciano, and a further three came past his prime against Walcott, who also dropped a prime Marciano.

Does this not interfere with the numbers in the slightest?

 

Worth mentioning Walcott also one punched Ezzard Charles when Charles was world champ and hadn't been stopped in 8 years and that was before he'd filled out during the war.

 

This pretty much sums it up...

Louis was a rather resolute, offensive/counteroffensive boxer-puncher, who operated almost exclusively within the kill zone, and whose record at Heavyweight represents a series of appreciably high-risk outings. I'd say, given his style, tactics and the level he operated at, it was imperative that Louis demonstrate both an elite chin and defensive ability.

How could he have ever garnered the type of success he did without those attributes?

 

Just to indulge myself if no one else. Ricky Nelson sang it right.

This is just a 12 second or so span of footage showing off Louis’s footwork and defensive skills.

I time stamped the start from the moment Louis beautifully extricates himself from being caught in the corner, hitting Baer with a left hook on the way out - and watch until Louis’ lands a sublime multi punch combo to Barr’s head.

I won’t spoon feed a detailed narrative, but Louis’ defensive measures and supporting footwork are impossible to oversight. His judgment is perfect, remaining in or on the precipice of the kill zone - as @Man_Machine just highlighted.

I can’t stand watching fighters bouncing around superfluously - so, conversely, that’s why Louis is such a joy to work - so perfectly efficient and economical. Also, during this fight he took some heat from an inspired Baer barrage - BUT, within seconds Joe turned it around and it soon it was Baer who was being battered.

Another bonus (for me) is that I bothered to look up how to time stamp from an IPhone.

Not as simple as doing same from a desk top but not complicated either. Woo Hoo!

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We've gone around most of this and are circling. I've posted at length about the correlation between Holmes and Louis and the multiple reasons.

Walcott won the lineal crown via a one punch KO and also sat another ATG down in Marciano. Guys like Snipes and Shavers didn't win an alphabet title let alone go lineal and KO title holding guys with one punch. There's no shame in getting dropped by a hard hitting sniper like Walcott. Holmes was dropped by lesser guys. Walcott had some serious tricks up his sleeve and matched up nicely vs a well faded Joe Louis.

There's a reason McGrains middleweight chin thread is only talking chins. Chin encompasses lots of things.

I'll drop out at this point as we've gone 90% as far as we can.

 

Excellent post! I originally had Holmes chin top-tier. Perhaps not quite on the level of Ali, Cobb, Chuvalo, etc) but on par with the likes of Liston, Foreman (perhaps slightly below) but now I think I'll peg him down a level further at an 8. I can't imagine it'll go over to well, this forum is obsessed with Holmes with one person in particular coming out of the woodworks whenever he can to come to Holmes' rescue.

 

A 6 is above average. Louis's punch resistance is about average/above average. His recuperative prowess is about an 8-9. I'll probably tweak his chin ranking to 7/10. A 6/10 (now 7/10) chin & 7/10 defense isn't bad at all, so I dont why you think it's absurd and not good enough for world level. BTW, I'm a big Louis fan, but I have to be objective about some of his traits.

 

It seems that a lot differences in opinion also comprise variances in their definition of “chin” - so agreement on the definition would help but it may not be possible - there’s a lot of different metrics to consider and properly weigh.

One could abstractly cite that Frazier was dropped 11 times throughout his own career but without due qualifications of who, when and how many times it was achieved by the same opponent, the read on Joe’s chin could see his whiskers being grossly underrated.

The other thing I mentioned in a previous post was that a 10/10 chin is perfect - if that is even literally possible to rate any chin as such.

So, in theory, a 9/10 chin obviously showed some weaknesses to warrant that a < 10 rating, placing it shy of perfect - likely some KDs suffered by said fighter - in fact, at least 1 KD suffered being mandatory to not be rated 10/10.

But even for a fighter to suffer just 1 or 2 KDs in a career, that could still be seen to put that fighter somewhat behind a chin that NEVER suffered a KD and a chin that perhaps never even appeared close to suffering a KD.

Accounting for both resilience on impact and recuperative powers after being hurt, I’d probably still rate Holmes as having a great chin - but there are levels even in that realm and I believe that Ali had a greater chin.

So say, if we rated Ali at 9, we (or at least I) would have to find a rating below that for Holmes - perhaps 8.5 or 8, as you say, to at least differentiate between the two men.

I view chins like those of Chuvalo, Cobb and McCall as beyond great - they were downright freakish - well outside of normal. Inhuman.

I quickly rewatched Foreman vs Chuvalo - if we were ever actually going to witness the finite limit to the resilience of Chuvalo’s chin - it would’ve been during that fight.

It seems Chuvalo possibly might’ve been close to falling before the fight was stopped - but then Foreman had already hit him with everything and the kitchen sink - and really, it wasn’t a case of Chuvalo buckling as at the stoppage.

Imo, the stoppage was more the assumption that no man could possibly take much more - nor should they take any more, even if they were still, inexplicably, holding their feet as Chuvalo was.

Chuvalo was def. buckled earlier in the round but though backing up, he still appeared to be better braced for and firmed up against the following onslaught.

Being specifically braced and ready for impact is another feature to resilience to be considered atop all else - and we know Ali prepped himself to the nth degree in that regard.

The rope a dope and it’s variations were multifaceted in so far as Ali, pre med, taking some of the bigger punches with the support of the ropes behind him - shots that might’ve seen him in a lot more trouble had they been landed in mid ring.

Apologies for the long winded reply.

 

Not a standout in any of these categories of the greats. Perhaps on par with Frazier or a bit below in terms of chin and below him in terms of defence I think. His offense is what really made him special.