Are you blind? Did you miss the part where I said Norton deserved the nod? atsch And no, I don't think Young won the fight. It was a terrible fight to score and was very close, so throwing the old "if you knew how to score a fight" line is totally inappropriate in this case. Young was on the back foot all night, doing nothing really special at all. Ali didn't do much either, mostly because he couldn't because of the nature of the fight. Ali edged it IMO, very tight though.
Young's body work was consistent, easily the most consistent part of the fight. Young landed more. He landed the harder shots, scarce as they were. Young won the fight.,
Yes, he did land more. Hard shots? I must've missed those. Ali controlled the movement and was the aggressor for more of the fight. It was a sloppy, boring, unattractive, shitfest... that was terrible to score because Ali hated coming forward, and Young was hanging out of the bloody ropes half the time (slight exaggeration). I haven't seen the fight for ages, but every time I was forced to watch it as part of my capital punishment, I scored it either narrowly for Ali, or a draw (once). If you think Young won, I have no gripe, because so many rounds were close. But maybe you should do the same thing and realise that close rounds can go either way.
His first instinct was to clinch when in close. But the few times he actually fought back on the inside he did so quite well. Watch for example how he let's a tiring Quarry come in close in rd 6 in their rematch and then rocks him with sharp hooks and uppercuts. Also, in Manilla he showed some good infighting, since Padilla wouldn't let him hold Frazier. I wouldn't say "weak", but it wasn't up there with for example Louis's and Tyson's. Blin was no title opponent. And yes, he wasn't good, but I only used the fight as an example of Ali using the counter hook. But there are other examples, as the fight against Terrell. And the hooks he landed on C. Williams and Bonavena weren't bad. Quarry was awful because Ali made him look bad. But again I just used it as an example of a fight where Ali used a more varied arsenal. The Ali who faced Young was VERY far removed from the prime version. It's hardly the same fighter. Should we start to use Louis's losses to Charles and Marciano as examples of how he fared against boxers and swarmers, you think? As for Lyle, if Ali would have went full out when he had him dazed in the corner he might have ended his career right there. He was gone. And yes, he was ahead on two of the judges cards, but that was only because Ali was giving away rounds. He hardly landed anything substantial on Ali in the whole fight, while Ali had him rocked in the 8:th and time and again found him with his lead right. All things considered, I happen to think he put on quite a good showing against Lyle, even if the fight was dull as hell. He wasn't in great shape or very motivated, and faced a very tough and extremely motivated opponent in Lyle, and still walked away without a scratch. His fight plan was a bit risky, but he pulled it off in the end. Yes, and Sonny Banks. But it didn't happen too often. In his prime, or even close to it? Exactly what fights are you thinking of? That's not unreasonable. You might be right. But that's one aspect of it I've never seen mentioned before. Interesting.
Exactly how I see it. One should also remember that, unlike Norton III, it wasn't a big controversy at the time. Towards the end of the fight Cosell reports that the feeling at ringside is that the fight is very close, and that he thinks so himself.
To show to the managment of the talented young heavyweight contender how vital it was that they retained him as chief cornerman?
A few things,Ali had a good left hook ,though it was underused,watch the Bonavena fight if you disagree.Ali seldom went out to finish a fight early ,check how many one round kos he had,and often allowed opponents to win rounds ,this is not a flaw if it is intentional.The gift decisions you speak of are when Ali was clearly past his prime,34 and upwards and as in the Young fight 20lbs above his optimum weight.I would point out of the three you mentioned ALL were UNANIMOUS.Ali's corner DID use smelling salts to help revive him,the delay for the torn glove ,which was NOT replaced ,was SIX SECONDS.I have the fight UNEDITED.Harry Carpenter who commentated LIVE for the BBC on the fight did a programme on this controversy ,and confirmed it was ONLY SIX SECONDS.Ali defended against some less than top men, during his second reign,but he was fighting up to FOUR times a year.For example,he regained the title in 1974 Oct ,In 1975 he defended it against Wepner,surely he was entitled to an easy first defence after Zaire?Then LYle,Bugner, and Frazier ,to close out the year.In 76 he Started with an easy defence against Coopman,then Young an easy one with Dunn,but then he takes on Norton.77 Evangelista ,a soft one but then Shavers ,this is a Champion past his best in his middle 30's . I think the defences he made ,even the soft ones would compare VERY favourably with the dross that your Pal Wlad fights .The difference is there was much greater depth in Ali's time,and also that he was clearly in decline.Apart from Foreman who do you think he avoided? His toughest fights were with Frazier and Norton ,he fought each of them THREE TIMES .
My only two cents here is this...in the 60's,Ali was unbelievable...much like Roy Jones was at 168 in the late 90's...But as a cat who relied a whole lot on his physical abilities....and a set of big brass balls ....as age crept in,in the 70's,his abilities deteriorated....much like Roy jones post Y2K... But I still insist...I don't imagine any HW in history....and I say this with a lot of respect for ATGs like Joe Louis,Marciano etc...that could beat the Ali that stopped Liston for the tiltle the first time...
Yes ,but you thought Bob Foster was holding Ali even ,despite the SEVEN knockdowns.Interesting that that close fights with NOrton [3] Shavers. and Young were ALL UNANIMOUS DECISIONS for ALI.Just a thought who do you think was in front in the Dempsey Willard fight ,before the untimely stoppage? . Only a gentle **** take.
All Flash and no cash...Ali had good hand speed and foot movement but most of his stoppages came from flurries to cut or stop a guy on the ropes. The Foreman and Bonavena came vs exausted fighters. Ali did not go to the body and because of his quick reflexes and feet had a bad habit of leaning back from the hook. If a fighter feinted the hook and then fired Ali would be hit
Perhaps it was just his decreased speed in the 70's, but it's always seemed to me like Ali forgot how to throw the right uppercut in his second career. He had a serviceable one in his prime, and landed it many times against many a foe. In the 70's, it didn't return, and was definitely an exploitable weakness.
When you throw the right uppercut you are vulnerable to the left hook counter,possibly with Ali's slower reflexes he eshewed this weapon.
Depends on how one scores the Dempsey Willard fight, sure Dempsey took round 1, but rember, they won the round and did not get extral points, for the knockdowns, so assuming that Willard won rounds 2 and 3 on the judges cards, (And Willard was getting stronger as Dempsey faded) It could be that Willard had a arugement that he was ahead.