The fights were boring, except Shavers and Frazier. You were entertained by him 'standing still' vs Lyle were you? The non-action vs Young, Bugner and Evangelista? The embarrassments that were Dunn, Wepner and Coopman. His tickling punches vs Norton, which is a terrible fight also. You probably loved this 'entertainment'. Good for you. :good ps. Only one against a mandatory contender too. Evangelistsa "Rated Ring Number 8" as if The Ring rankings in the mid-70s were held in high-esteem. Probably another one of Johnny Ort's brown envelopes.
Actually that's quite a fair comment. I agree that Ali was likely biding his time but I thought the fight 'even' on the cards though.
You and me more or less agreeing on something concerning Ali... Maybe there's a solution to the Israel-Palestine situation as well. :smooch
Ha ha. I am an Ali fan believe it or not. I just don't like his second reign, that's all. And I hate bad judges. :good
Lets debunk this rubbish 1. Ali punched emphatically from any distance during his prime, but being a taller fighter was more effective at range 2. He regularly threw jabs to the body in his prime, I haven't seen a fight where he didn't 3. Ali would use lead left hooks, and his hooks from both hands at mid range did serious damage to Liston and Williams. Liston was nearly ko'd by left hooks in the 3rd round before Ali was blinded in the first match Ali even used the treble hook on occasion. Its very very hard to pull off a treble hook in under a second but Ali did it, most cant double hook. 4. Liston was probably the best jabber of the lott and he didn't control anything with his jab. Most of those fights are past prime and not all gave him problems with the jab 5. His low guard isn't a style fault because he didn't get hit in his prime, he used a guard effectively in his second career, ie against Foreman. He was caught with hooks because he leaned back which leaves you open, which is a mistake in his prime he would also pivate lean to the side too and side step, making it harder to land a follow up. 6. I don't think Ali lacked power, he could stun the likes of Liston and Foreman early. He took rounds off especially later in his career to pace himself, this actually helped him be an effective 15round fighter 7. Thats not a flaw in his game, thats a possible question mark over his legacy. Ali's career after Frazier 3, is irrelevant to him being GOAT, the rest are wins while being a shot fighter past his best 8. Again this isn't a flaw in his game, its a criticism of his legacy. And its a myth thats already being exposed in this thread. it boils down to a silly mistake by a cocky young 21yo fighter that he fought through and wouldn't make in the rematch Ali wanted to quit when completely blinded by an illegal substance on Listons gloves, I don't think anyone would want to be in the ring with 1 of the biggest punchers in history without seeing where the hell their punches are coming from, do you? 9. Legacy and stylistic flaws are different. 10. Legacy not a stylistic flaw, why didn't you just write the thread title as 'Mendoza hates on Ali thread'. The worst fighter he fought were European champions, whos the worst in your opinion? I don't think he thought anyone worse than Krasniqi, Scott Welsh, Meehan, Willi Fisher, Herbie Hide, Oldyfield etc
No, his second reign is really nothing with exception of Manilla. But I like many of his fights during the early 70's, even if some of them was crap as well (the ones against Mathis and MacFoster for example).
The first thing I hear when somebody is trying to poke holes in Ali's resume is by bringing up the fights at the tail end of his career. I'm not talking Foreman or Norton 1, I'm talking Norton 3, Shavers, Young, and some even have the audacity to mention Holmes and Berbick. I take the rough with the smooths. I can see valid points about what he did when he was still an able fighter. He didn't go to the body, he wasn't as hard to hit as people make out, he lacked power, I can accept all of those comments. But I won't have people justify Ali's flaws by bringing up the Shavers fight or the Young fight. Forget it. That wasn't Ali.
Exactly what I touched on earlier. You can only knock something if it's not successful, and Ali was anything 'but' during the 60's. His low guard was part of the reason he was the fighter 'he was' during his prime. I tried to tell Stonehands89 a couple of months that Ali's lack of fundementals were a positive when in his prime. Speed and athleticism he relied on heavily at his peak, but you can't have one without the other when it comes to Ali at his peak. Lack of basic fundementals combined with speed and athleticism equalled a successful formula for Ali throughout the 60's. When past his prime, lack of basic fundementals and eroding speed and athleticism caught up up with him. But all that even catches up with fighters who have the basic fundementals, eg; hands up before and after throwing punches, punching to the body, keeping chin tucked down, etc.
Apart from Foreman who did he avoid? Evangelista was rated no 8 for three consecutive years,granted he was only European level,but he was still good enough to beat Renaldo Snipes in 83 6 years after the Ali fight.I think if you compare Ali's opponents in his second reign to most of Joe Louis's they stack up pretty well.
What are you talking about? My comment was about the actual fights. Totally devoid of action and amongst the most boring of all-time (save the two I mentioned). What's amusing is your post saying "Ali beat so and so and he was in the top 10". Isn't that what a champ's supposed to do? :huh
...and what Evangelista's beating of Snipes six years later has to do with his #8 rating in 1977 I have no idea. He was given a title shot on the basis on: a) never having beaten a top 10 fighter b) Losing to Lorenzo Zanon Actually those were decent credentials to fight Ali around that time. Mike Schutte was pencilled in later that year too.
Carpenter mentiones the bell at 3.06, so unless he predicted it, it's unlikely it sounded a second later. You can't hear the bell on that footage but anyone with a copy of the fight knows it rings a split-second after Cooper lands the hook. The rounds ends at either 3.03 or 3.04. The break is approx 10 seconds.
Ali did seldom go to the body, and almost never really consistently. So my question is: what specific fights do you think he could have benefitted by concentrating more on the body, and would any of his fights have turned out differently if he went more to the body, and, if so, which fights?