The Great Trainers & Fighters on Jack Dempsey

Prime, you capsulized my general position in a few short sentences.
Head to head against other greats in their prime, is what i was getting at.
Not resume, which is determined by the era we are born in...Touche'....

 

Prime nailed it. I agree with him when debating a fighters place in all time rankings. Head to head is the best way to go. I always felt this way about Larry Holmes. His title reign wasn't that impressive as far as quality of opposition but H2H Holmes is right up there based on overall ability. Just my 2 cents.

 

But head to head is just guess work.

We have NO ideal who would win with Holmes vs Marciano. Sure we can debate if Marciano or Holmes would win, but at the end of the day. No one is right.

I rank on what they did, and less on head to head. Marciano clean out his era, Holmes didnt.

Hell I can see in this h2h thing guys like Tunney or Corbett beating the great Joe Louis just because of what Conn did. And unlike Conn, Tunney would know to stay away and not go for the knockout. dont be shock if upsets like Tunney over Louis or even Marciano over Holmes happens if they relly fight.

 

I don't see how an 'accurate' head to head rating can be made in the case of someone who is rather unproven. If you base on skills only, is Roy Jones Junior your number light heavyweight? Didn't think so.

 

Ranking purely on "achievements" always boils down to some sort of judgment on "quality of the opposition" anyway, which is more or less the same as judging fighters' abilities "head-to-head".
So I dont see the problem either way. It's all opinion.

 

:thumbsup Achiements = H2H.

Boxers achieve their H2H Potential And it show how good they were by who they beat And lost.

PRIME Foreman DESTROYED Prime Frazier And Prime Norton - so it proof he can DESTROY any-one H2H IMO.


FOREMAN HOOOOK!:hat:smoke

 

I'm not impressed at all by Holmes' resume and I'm even less impressed with the way he performed in some fights (Witherspoon, The Truth Willaims etc) but I think head to head I imagine him giving Marciano a real tough fight (but then again I see prime Norton beating Holmes) so it's kinda funny with me it's just the impression I get from watching these guys - know what you're saying about the Tunney Louis thing aswell - I think Tunney gives everyone a very very stern boxing match

 

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOMM FOREMAN HOOOOOOOOOK! :happy

 

I had a feeling had Foreman and Frazier not fight at ALL. Had Frazier retire after the first Ali fight and never come back. A lot of people would have a hard time seeing Foreman blowing Frazier out in 2 rounds like he did.

I sure a lot of people may not see Tunney out boxing Louis, because of the Louis knockout hl reels and only a few fights with Tunney perhaps.

I didnt expect the fight a few nights ago to end with Williams out in 2 rounds. These head to head matchs are just mere guess work.

 

You are bang on about that aswell- I'm always wanting to say that to people on here aswell:good

 

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Jerry Quarry face better guys than Marciano ever did in the likes of Ali, Frazier,
Perhaps Patterson if one ranks him high, but because Marciano was "King" of his era, and Quarry didnt even grab the title in his, Marciano should be rank higher than Quarry right?

 

Very True this :deal Wasn't Frazier a pretty big favourite going into the first match vs Foreman aswell? pretty amazing when you consider what actually took place - but then I suppose in all the three above cases there probably enough people who would go with the opposite of what you said aswell -

 

it's not about quality of opposition per sa though - it's how you do against them - Quarry a true warrior (god bless his soul) was just that bit limited to acheive the absolute elite level - otherwise it would've been quarry up there in the roll call of champions instead of maybe Frazier

 

Find replace Quarry with Ken Norton, who beat Ali. :scaredas:

Norton base on his win over Ali should be rank over the likes of Louis and Johnson because well he beat Ali. H2H any way, that would put Norton near the top 4 at least.

 

Quarry was beaten quite badly by Frazier and Ali.
Losing to great opposition doesn't count for much.

Marciano should be ranked higher than Quarry because he was better, he was greater, IMO. However you come to that conclusion is up to you, but I think 90% of us here would agree Marciano>Quarry.

And the point is, proven ability/achievement and head-to-head are judged with very similar reasoning.