The Jack Johnson Vs Tommy Burns Fight.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Dec 22, 2023.


  1. KernowWarrior

    KernowWarrior Bob Fitzsimmons much bigger brother. Full Member

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    There were rumours that Burns had been ill, looked pale on day of fight, now whether that used as excuse for outcome is a distinct possibility.

    Burns was a very astute guy when it came to money, and for the Johnson fight he held out for the unheard of figure of $30,000, and this in era when fights did not just get postponed for illness.

    Again if rumours are true the promoter Mr McIntosh was not one who you messed with, as it is alleged Johnson when seeing/hearing of size of the fight gate demanded increase in his purse or he would not leave his dressing room, Mr McIntosh supposedly 'suggested' to Johnson with a revolver in his hand that he 'ought' to get in the ring or his brains would be splattered, Mr Johnson ceded to the promoters 'request'.

    Burns had as McVey pointed out been within few pounds in fights previously, so those few less pounds could have come from very rigorous training.

    We of course will never truly know, whether he was as ill, did he train extra hard, but we know he fought bravely, gave a coloured fighter his opportunity, left without the title but a very good bank balance.
     
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  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    I’ve been re-reading Boxing Day by Jeff Wells.

    In the two fights preceding his match vs Johnson, (Squires then Lang) some observed that Burns looked pale/yellow, which had some guessing that he might be suffering from either the flu or jaundice.

    I haven’t reached the description for the Johnson fight as yet - but it was close to 4 months after Burns last fight vs Lang.

    For Squires and Lang (those fights separated by only 10 days), Burns was 175 lb and 174 lb respectively.

    I’ll write back after I’ve finished the book to update on any descriptions of Burns appearing unwell for the actual Johnson fight.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Burns trained in public and he said himself he was in the best condition of his life. Burns was close friends with the promoter/referee McIntosh,if he wasnt 100% he could have asked for a postponement.
     
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  4. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Sure Mc, Burns might’ve been fine by the time he fought Johnson.

    Like I said, I’ll write back re his perceived conditioning for the actual fight.

    I’ve just given the source of the “smoke” re opinions that he appeared ill at some stage during his time in Oz - specifically during the period of the Squires and Lang fights - near 4 months prior to his fight vs Johnson.

    As to postponing, apparently Burns was possibly ill enough to have pulled out of the Squires match but he still went through with it.

    Though good mates with Hugh D McIntosh, even if Burns wasn’t 100% for Johnson - given the considerate set up and timing for such a huge, long awaited event, I don’t know that it would’ve been so easy for Burns to have pulled out.

    At the end of the day, Huge Deal was all about the $$$. :D
     
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  5. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agreed , a man who was 5'7' who fought at welterweight moves up to heavyweight wins the title and fights Jack Johnson?
    That's some cojones.
     
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  6. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Bigger cajones than Jeffries.

    Apparently, Big Jim criticised Burns for defending against Johnson and accused Burns of being greedy for $$$ - with Jeff clarifying that he himself wasn’t so money hungry.

    But then, when Hugh D McIntosh wired Jim asking if he wanted to referee the fight - Jim replied saying yes, he would do it for $5000 with all his travel costs covered. McIntosh thought, **** that for a joke - I’m not paying that.

    Apparently Jim wasn’t even happy with the fact that McIntosh didn’t even cover the costs of Jim’s reply to the invitation/proposal.

    With all that, Jeffries was still picking Burns to win the fight but indicated that if Johnson did win, Jeff would still not be coming out of retirement to fight Lil Arthur.

    The informal word going around at the time was that Jim had in fact retired in order to avoid a match against Johnson.
     
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  7. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Okay, I’ve more or less finished rereading the book Boxing Day by Jeff Wells.

    There were some who observed that, just prior to first bell, Burns appeared pale, sallow and not right. Some described him as looking like he hadn’t slept, as if he was hungover.

    However, it seems those opinions were only expressed after the fact of the fight but I can’t say for sure.

    The observers in question were some in attendance, The Amateur - a writer for a local paper The Referee and good old Jack London.

    The writer - The Amateur was a positive informal and business associate of Burns, having financial interest in Tommy - so one could assign bias to his comments.

    London was, of course, London, a POS, but despite his observation he didn’t use it to suggest that Burns could win any other circumstance - he made clear how thoroughly Burns was dominated - and of course we all know the cry he made for Jeffries to return - in London’s eyes, Jeff being the only man capable of taking the title from Johnson.

    Those who observed Burns to be pale and sallow put forth possible reasons as Burns being sick with the flu or partying too heavy the night before in anticipation of victory or becoming too nervously driven before the fight resulting in his overtraining.

    It was also mentioned in cursory fashion that Burns himself said he didn’t feel right and that he dropped down to 168 1/2 lb overnight, just before the fight.

    However, there is no mention of Burns appearing ill or what have you in the weeks leading up to the fight.

    Imo, no way was Burns partying the night before. He knew exactly what was coming - and it wasn’t going to be good even in the best case scenario.

    The $30,000 odd sum Burns commanded could be interpreted as his retirement package - Burns knowing he would no longer be Champion after facing Johnson - and by association, no longer being able to earn the purses he previously enjoyed as HW Top Dog.

    Imo, Burns usual physical appearance, sick or not, conditioned or not, would’ve seemed somewhat different anyway at such a lighter weight. He was definitely more cut than any other fights in and around the time.

    Perhaps it was in Adam Pollack’s book that I read that Burns was becoming increasingly agitated (nervous??) as the fight approached - to me, that description sounded very similar to Jeffries’ demeanour as the Reno fight drew closer - and it’s well corroborated (including by Jeff’s wife I believe) that Jeffries was extremely fretful the night before, getting little or no sleep.

    Though he’s not often mentioned in this regard, I believe that an un-cuffed Johnson was an extremely intimidating prospect for many of not all white fighters going around - a testament to how good Johnson really was.

    Please note, imo it wouldn’t have changed the result but Burns coming in so light was probably a bad idea.

    Also, the true size difference between Burns and Johnson wasn’t entirely apparent until they hit the ring stripped to fight - this apparently took some observers aback, leaving then wondering how Burns could possibly overcome the relative giant before him.

    He’d proven that he was plucky enough and could get around well at his previous, heavier weights.

    Burns had also promised to belabour Johnson’s body and one might guess that extra weight would’ve served him better in that endeavour.

    At the end of the day, it seemed Johnson could’ve just as easily stopped/KO’d Burns in 2 rounds - but the theme of Johnson carrying and protracting fights was well established throughout Johnson’s career.

    Another tidbit - it was understood even in Australia that Johnson was rorted in the Hart fight - and when he came out to Australia, Johnson reaffirmed that he clearly won the fight and was robbed.

    Lastly, here is a news report which basically describes both men being in fine condition, qualifying that statement deductively by adding that Burns had to be in tremendous shape to absorb such a beating for as long as he did.

    Burns was also quoted as cleanly acknowledging his defeat and adding that he wasn’t a victim of any fouls - but in fair balance, some papers did employ some free licence when “quoting” the comments of fighters - certainly, local rags wouldn’t have wanted to impugn the major event in any way.

    Also, can’t recall if it’s mentioned in this article but the claim that Johnson incurred several broken ribs was either started or further flamed by the fact of his visiting Manly Hospital after the fight - addressing same, Johnson said he was fine and that it was simply routine for him to have himself checked out after all of his fights.

    Apologies for the long post - just squeezing in as much relevant information as I know it.

    https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/9240075
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2024
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