Tommy Loughran : Does anyone rate him down for "drawing the color line" ?

As always, you're far more wrong than right.

What major gyms barred access to black fighters? Stillman's didn't. Grupps didn't. Are you making things up again?

While there was obviously some degree of prejudice against black people, boxing was actually a springboard to equality unlike virtually any other activity for blacks. Not only was equality forced by the circumstances of fighting in a square ring, it was also far more demanded by white audiences than you would believe. Most people, most whites in the crowd, expected basic fairness.

The fact that Loughran and Dempsey felt the need to defend the color line or pretend that they would fight Wills, Flowers, etc was not because they felt the need to answer to a single black fighter. It was because they felt the need to answer to fight fans -who saw through the shenanigans.

 

I have heard the racial comments both ways, Blacks are faster (tell that to Joe Calzage) and Blacks can not take it to the body or fight under pressure(tell that to Matthew Saad Muhammad ) As far as why American Whites were not dominant since the 70's ( I think Burt has a good point, it was economics ) But Why are the Russians,etc. so dominant in the Heavier division since the end of communism, makes me wonder if they would have had an impact earlier if allowed.

As far as the speed vs Power issue, it can go either way. Larry Holmes was a great amateur but was KO"D 2 times by White Nick Wells and DQ'd by White Bobick to avoid being KO'd, should we suggest that Power nullified speed or just say its half a dozen of one and 6 of an other

 

Stonehands,good points you made about the boxing gyms were intergrated fully, such as Stillmans, etc..And whatever color lines existed between fighters,I never found this among my fellow audience at those days..Sure they rooted for their favorites,who doesn't ? But when a bad dec. was rendered we voiced our opinions, regardless of personal biases...That is visceral to boxing fans, I believe...

 

Yes, any man who avoids a fighter willingly for any reason should be marked down. This, however, is the worst reason for not taking on somebody in the ring. We come from dark days to live in shades of gray.

 

Both Gene and Tommy's legacy take a hit for refusing to fight black fighters. Gene used the color line so he wouldn't have to fight George Godfrey, and Tommy used it as well with Joe Louis and JHL.

 

Wonder how much more would it take to knockout Rocky Marciano, Jeffires, or even a certain George from the 60's and 70's whom Foreman, Ali and Fraizer could not get a ten count over.

 

Do n't get me wrong,I'm not excusing these people or their racist ideology. It's just that in those days,it was accepted as the norm. Disgusting as it was. And it was TOTALLY disgusting.

 

You make a couple good points. But let me make one. In Tommy Loughrans long career that spanned two decades your telling me he never found the time to fight one black contender? Certainly there were certain black fighters he avoided during his tensure.

 

Bummy Davis--Correct in your analysis...Just to get into the ring requires courage...As a kid I first found out about bias in boxing..As I have posted before,I as a kid lived next door to a trainer of the then Light Heavy Champ, John Henry Lewis..Every evening I would go next door and box with stablemates of the champ, and eat salads with oil, as was ordered...Anyway one of the boxers was Tommy Jones, a black welterweight who was called the "colored welter champ of the USA "...So nice to me..He had trouble getting meaningful bouts with the top white welters, I was told and had to go to Australia, to get fights then..That is when I was first aware of prejducice in boxing...
But I believe it is very much based on fear , not of being hurt, but economic fear...Losing to a fighter who doesn't draw revenue, is the prime reason for the black greats of yesterday's difficulty in getting opportunities for championship fights....Even my hero Joe Louis avoided black contenders of his day...Not fear of being hurt, but is the "risk worth the reward " , mentality...The color green talks a lot in life...

 

Who do you think he should have met Suzie?
Loughran made no bones about keeping to the colour line, my point is that who was a top lhvy during his prime years who was black?
Kid Norfolk? Just possibly, but I don't see a convincing case.
It could be argued that Joe Louis avoided more dangerous black fighters than Loughran.

See my first post on Loughran, for my arguments on him.

 

So your arguement is that during a span of 15 years there was not one good black contender for loughran to fight? Hard to believe really.