Thanks guys for the Olivares - Rose tip and the clip. I got a chance to watch it and yeah, he does look much better. I do have the Arguello fight and recall it being highly competitive. In the clip with Rose, he actually reminds me a bit of Arguello. Similar style, although his punches are a little wider.
Sorry guys, I was getting ready for work earlier. I see Oscar Del La Hoya is the near the top of a lot of your lists. How do you justify him being higher than Barrera?
For starters, he has a far better resume, was a top P4P fighter throughout his career, and simply accomplished much more. Was a better fighter for sure IMO, even though both have losses in their prime.
Im really not big on Oscar these days, i have my reasons, but i can respect that he has a great resume. I have really questioned his greatness in recent times though
I think Oscar Del La Hoya suffers greatly from his losses against the likes of Trinidad, who was later dismantled by Hopkins and Wright, albeit at a higher weight. He was winning that fight until he chose to runaway. I also think Whitaker and sturm both beat him, and he never fought and beat a fighter on the level of prime Morales or even prime Naseem hamed at any point. He won two belts from two aging greats, Chavez, who was a shadow of his former self, and Whitaker, although not what he once was, still won in my eyes. He has losses to Mosley, and Mayweather. He lost to the best most of the time, I give him credit for that. I don't consider De La Hoya better than Marco Antonio Barrera.
I can't offer the full 10. But I remember well how destructive Zarate, Oliveras & Pintor were. In my mind Carlos Zarate Wins 66(63) and Ruben Oliveras Wins 88(77) Losses 13(9) Draws 3 were amongst the very best of the Mexican KO kings. These guys didn't just KO bums either. Lionel Rose & Paul Ferreri, perhaps Australia’s greatest ever bantamweights, fought Word Title matches with the pair as follows: *1969: Ruben Oliveras (51-0-1) defeated Lionel Rose (34-2-0) by KO in round 5 of 15 (winning Rose’s WBC & WBA titles). Prior to this bout Oliveras was not only undefeated, but had only twice been taken the distance in 52 fights! Rose the reigning champ had never been stopped prior to this fight. (as mentioned earlier in posts by Natonic, Sweat Pea etc - Oliveras at his very best) *1976: Carlos Zarate (42-0-0) defeated Paul Ferreri (50-3-5) by cuts stoppage in round 12 of 15 (Zarate successfully defending his WBC title). Prior to this bout Zarate’s undefeated 42 fight record included 41 KO’s. Ferreri, the Australian & Commonwealth champion had never been stopped prior to this fight, and in fact was not stopped again for another 10 years! Lupe Pinton, who eventually took Zarate’s title, was also a big banger as his Wins 56(42) Losses 14(7) record suggests. It's kinda hard to believe the Pintor v Zarate match went the distance when you take into account their combined punching power. The best Mexican bantamweights have been sensational to watch!
My list: 10 Erik Morales 9 Vicente Saldivar 8 Lupe Pintor 7 Salvador Sanchez 6 Marco Antonio Barrera 5 Jose Napoles (Adopted Mexico as his own country; Cuban by birth) 4 Ricardo Lopez 3 Ruben Olivares 2 Carlos Zarate 1 Julio Cesar Chavez Mentions to: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Castillo.
Here's mine: 1 Julio Cesar Chavez 2 Ricardo Lopez 3 Carlos Zarate 4 Ruben Olivares 5 Marco Barrera 6 Salvador Sanchez 7 Erik Morales 8 Vincente Saldivar 9 Miguel Canto 10 Humberto Gonzales
I think Barrera suffers more from TWO losses to Junior Jones, considering Jones was nowhere near as high class an opponent, and because by pretty much everyone's account, De La Hoya legitimately won that fight. You think Tito losing to Hopkins and Wright(the latter when past his prime) takes away from his accomplishments, such as his 17 defenses of his WW title, second only to Armstrong's 19? You don't take into account how dominant Tito was in his prime? You simply discredit it as a performance for Oscar because Tito lost to Hopkins and Wright? Sorry, but Tito was a more accomplished fighter than either Barrera or Morales. Trinidad was on the level of a Morales and above the level of Hamed. Not to mention he holds a win over Mosley according to most accounts in their second bout. Vargas and Quartey were two others, depending on how you scored the Quartey bout. Barrera has nowhere near this much quantity or quality in his resume, aside from Morales. He was also past his best when he lost to Floyd, and as I said most had him beating Mosley in the rematch, I had it to Oscar by a point. I do, clearly.
The point I've been trying to make is Oscar De La Hoya has a lot of losses, and that without including the robberies he was involved in. What are Trinidad's greatest wins? You clearly missed the part where I said "fought and beat", beat being the key word. He fought Trinidad, and lost. Regardless of what people think, it also says on his resume that he lost twice to Mosley, not once. Vargas and Quartey are as accomplished as Erik Morales?
#1. Chavez #2. Lopez #3. Sanchez #4. Olivares #5. Barrera #6. Morales #7. Zarate #8. Canto #9. Saldivar #10. Azteca I don't consider DLH for this list because he wasn't born in Mexico, he is American. However, I will say that P4P I can see Barrera above DLH. I don't think it's clear one way or the other, but part of my reason is: I, unlike most felt Trinidad beat him 115-113. I always rated DLH very highly because I assumed he was spectacular in this fight, then I saw it, scored it a draw (6 of the first 7 for DLH, the last 5 for Tito), and then I watched it without sound and scored it 7-5 for Trinidad. Maybe I'm expecting too much in this fight from Oscar because all of the hype, but I've seen it 6 times, and so far it's 5-0-1 for Tito on my card. I felt Whitaker beat him 114-112, and all 4 times I've seen it I've had that score. I also felt Sturm and Quartey beat Oscar, and the only other controversial fight on DLH's resume is Mosley II, which I did have him winning by a point. Even so, Oscar still has a resume as good as Barrera's, but in my mind he lost to the very best he ever fought (Hopkins, Mosley, Mayweather, Whitaker, Trinidad), going 1-5 against them on my card, and Mosley beat Oscar 116-112 in my mind the first time they met, when both were in their primes. All of the controversy lowers my view of Oscar, even though it isn't really his fault, and because of that I feel it can be argued either way between DLH and MAB.
I'm surprised at so many rating Ricardo Lopez and Barrera\Morales over Saldivar.saldivar may have had a relatively brief career but his quality of opposition and tools were superior to the latter two fighters and Lopez resume pales in comparison to put it mildly. Laguna, Winstone, Sugar Ramos, Legra, Famechon, Seki etc. Just an insane body of work in such relatively short timespan.