Simply stated, Mike at 80% is going to have his arm raised against Bruno. Stylewise, Bruno is made to order and if they fought 12x Frank might win once. His chances are no better than say Tyrell Biggs or Alex Stewart. All fighters deteriorate and for different reasons. Many of the reasons tend to be things outside the ring. Tyson is no different than anyone else and it's not like other fighters don't deal with this issue. What some do a lot better than others is make adjustments. Other fighters make other choices and improve or compensate and some don't. They just go downhill at a different clip.
Excellent post. The part in bold is the most important. Tyson simply couldn't adjust or compensate when the going got tough.
I should have thought it was obvious what I'm saying. Tyson was hype over substance as proven by Douglas in February 1990. Don't worry, you weren't the only one who fell for it, millions did. It wasn't merely the defeat. It was the way it was inflicted that told most people with any common sense the guy was hyped beyond belief.
Absolutely. What it is specifically is a weakness in his game. All fighters have them. Tyson was no different than anyone else. Look at the deterioration of Bruno. But Frank worked on things and dedicated himself so the downward slide was not so steep. Some boxers do things this way and some don't. But it is a weakness in his game if he chooses not to. no different than having a weakness with lateral movement. A weakness that can be exploited by an opponent. Tyson did not adjust much at all when things went downhill. How many trainers did he go through? You still have to listen. Pay attention in the corner---how much of that was there? Boxing is a tough tough sport. If a guy does not change things , it's too difficult a sport to continue winning. The other huge factor in all of this was there was a new crop of pedigreed up and comers. Tyson was from the 84 grouping and those early results were against guys long in the tooth. Bruno turned pro himself in what, 79? 9 years in and things are not the same. you have to adjust. But the only contemporary of Tyson out of that 84 class was Biggs. Who bought into him anyway? Anyone that bothered to watch his form in the Bey fight actually think he had any sort of shot in there against Tyson. with that chin way up in the air like that? But that 88 class had Bowe. Lewis. Holyfield was moving up. Ruddock was coming into the picture. That's a different kettle of fish than old Thomas. Old Spinks. Old berbick. Old Smith. But Mike didn't make it to that crop. He was destroyed by a Don King fighter that was always on the undercards whose biggest knockdown over an opponent was Mike Williams. Not exactly Mount Fuji to climb, was it?
If he stays with Rooney he may have listened and adjusted better. He may not have even deteriorated as quickly and shown as as many flaws/weaknesses. He adusted in some of his fights with Rooney. Against Tucker, he gets hit with a huge left uppercut in the first round. He doesn't panic. He calmly takes the blow and even staggers a bit. He comes out the next round and slips the Tucker jab, something he actually did well practically the whole fight. He doesn't get hit with that big left uppercut again. He also showed much better defense than after Rooney left. Not all the guys Tyson, beat, even disregarding Biggs, with Rooney or shortly afterwards were "long in the tooth." Many had much more pro experience than him and were at or close to prime Tubbs - 29 yrs old Tucker - 29 yrs old Smith - 33 yrs old but turned pro very late - in 1981. Frazier - 26 yrs old. Bruno was 27 yrs old and had been a pro about 8 yrs.
Dont agree with that mate. You dont become the youngest heavyweight champ in history based on hype. You dont have seasoned professionals fearing for their life based on hype. Someone said tyson used 70 percent intimidation to win his fights. I dont agree but i get the point. But that intimidation wasnt coming from hype or tyson acting tough to people. It was because of what he could do in the ring. Going watch just the first round against douglas tyson wasnt in any kind of shape. He lost that fight far more than douglas ever won it. If tysons books to be believed he was pretty much an addict. He was a mess of a human being. He made decisions that pretty much destroyed his standing as an all time great. But to say it was hype is wrong imo. Not only did he become the youngest heavyweight champion he basically lit up the current heavyweighy champion at 20. Never been done again quite a feat for a hype job. It was clear to see what happened with tyson. Had no one to blame but himself in the end. But was far from hype.
Same thing with all fighters---how does he do when he is not the guy with the reflexes and the opponent is. Can he do something else? The guys Tyson fought were on the way down the ladder, not rising up it. The only guy youthful and rising up was Biggs. And when it was Mike's turn to be the guy on the downward slope, that's where the debate stems. I do not hold a guy like Rooney in all that high of esteem like you do. And proving his terrific boxing acumen and then listing the opponent as Tony Tucker doesn't count for all that much. To me anyway. Should you hold Tucker in that high of regard, and Tyson with that set of skills at his disposal---he should have easily changed things up and been simply overcome the boxing of Buster Douglas. So that does not find Mike incapable of handling Douglas, he had the skillset from the Tucker bout to turn to.
I think essentially tyson was a manufactured fighter but they done a great job with him. Cus does deserve a lot of critism with how he managed tyson but as a fighter he should get a hell of a lot of credit also. This was a guy standing at around 5 foot eleven knocking out much bigger guys. And winning the heavyweight crown at 20. A record yet to be bettered since. They made him the fighter he was. As soon as they stopped training the same way which i think was just prior to the bruno fight. But they re was problems before that i think. You can see a rapid decline in tysons skillset. Ended up with an unfulfilled career in the end. For me personally tyson that stayed on the right path would have beat all of them. Lewis. Holyfield. Bowe etc. He never tho so you ve got to put holyfield and lewis above him. But tyson had the most potential out of them all for me. Just couldnt remain disciplined and made some very terrible choices along the way. What we get nowadays is people comparing tyson how he actually did turn out to these fighters which is fair. But dont bypass his bad choices and poor discipline and try to make out that he was a hype job all along. Tyson had more potential than all of them. He achieved a good bit. But essentially became a shell of how he could have been. Still was a great fighter just not an all time great which he should have been. Lewis holyfield should definately go down as having better careers and better fighters in the end but tyson could have and should have been the best of the three. We wont see a better 20 year old heavyweight again.
We'll agree to differ. If you had the time or the inclination ( I don't ) you would probably find upwards of 25,000 posts on this board full of excuses for the Douglas defeat. That says it ALL for me.
I dont think people are making excuses for the performance. Douglas won the fight fair and square. What some are saying tho is the tyson that fought douglas wasnt the same tyson who was coming through. He d lost his way massively even by that point. Even just watching the very first round tyson was lethargic. Douglas was great on the nite but a lot of the people tyson did beat would have beaten him and maybe in fights leading up to it also. I m saying the tyson that fought douglas was a long way off the one that fought trevor berbick. He slipped for a number of reasons. Should he be held responsible for it...yes. but was he fighting at the same level as he had previously. I think you ve got to be honest and admit...he wasnt.
The problem there of course is you are asking us to believe that a kid peaked at 20, and it was all over by 22. Yet look how many rounds he fought between those ages, and if as the excuse mongers claim he wasn't even bothering with training I doubt if he would be taking terrible beatings in the gym. So as far as I can see he was manufactured, and that equals hype in my book.
What you forget to add was that he fought thirty seven fights from turning pro at 19 till he fought douglas at 22. A lot of these fights were against title challengers at the time. It was no secret they tried to keep him busy too keep him out of trouble fighting 15 times in 1985. 13 times in 86. 4 in 87. 3 in 88. And twice in 89. Before losing to douglas in 90. He was taking longer out after fights which is understandable as the competition was rising. In between that time he left his trainers that had trained him all the way through with a specific system. He was out the ring for longer. Talked about giving up the sport. Got involved with don king and trainers that didnt look up to much if the condom they used on him was anything to go by. Got involved with givens and the mother. Was involved in street fights heard reports of him drinking claims he was on drugs in his book. Reported suicide attempt. Was injured and had a long lay off before bruno. Weight balloned up and down. Then came out for the first round against douglas looking lethargic. We can put it down to tyson just getting found out as a hype job but its pretty clear what happened with him imo. But people see things differently i guess. Each entitled to their own opinions on it.
But that's just it. Things outside of boxing can have a big mpact and start the downward spiral. Why does everyone seem to think it has to be strictly boxing related? Just consider the money aspect alone. Some guys can make a lot of money and not change things 1 iota. Other's don't. Ever own a business or manage departments? How's that work out when one of the employees fall into money? Do you get the same production? I sure didn't. Not even close. What is a guy's "or else" they are telling Tyson at 5am to get up and do his roadwork? Like when he's been up to about 3? Pretty please Mike? Or, you have to Mike? It's a tough tough job in boxing. To me, much tougher than other sports consideing the physical toll and the mental dedication required. These things are still a plus or a minus when matching up with an opponent. And if the opponent can take advantage of that kind of thing. But it sure keeps things interesting, doesn't it? And is a main ingredient of upsets---fighter A did not {fill in the blank}.