You can, but it's like someone saying what's wrong with holding...???...even ALI did it. Well the issue is, we don't respect ALI for his holding and his verbal abuse of his opponents...we respect him despite these things. With Valuev leaning on someone...and saying Lewis did it...they just don't really belong in the same sentence...that is illustrated by the fact that the only thing they have in common is something that you shouldn't be proud of...and nothing that made him great. ...it's the same thing when people try to use ALI. Accomplish what the great fighters have accomplished in order to draw parallels with them...their names should not be used as scapegoats for questionable activity, or role models of said questionable activity.
Why would I not give him credit for showing obvious improvements if he did?, now you claim his defense is better than before?, he got caught with the same punches Ruiz landed on him the first time, there are not defensive improvements there at all. His defense remains the same, he's hard to catch on the face for a big man in his size and that's where it always was and remains today, nothing different there. Ruiz was able to faint some punches numerous times and catch him with others as he did the first time they met, as did Donald and as did Chagaev. Defensive improvements?, I don't think so man. Whether you want it to take it as a harsh type of opinion then it's your choice, it's you claiming Valuev showed insane imporevements, I don't see a single poster claiming that's true. Wrong, I never went for any numbers and I don't even remember them to be honest, you're just putting words in my mouth there. As I said the numbers tell a lot but they don't explain it all, if they did then people will just look at the numbers instead of actual fights. It's the opponent's positioning that would encourage him to throw more than he's supposed to. This isn't an improvement at all, throwing two more jabs after 2 isn't a major improvement nor a discussion-worthy topic. It's called feeling free enough to land based on the openings you have and if your opponent opened up for two more jabs then why not throw them?, it's not a case of improvement there, it's something I saw him done numerous times and mentioned the fights for you to check out again already. From three years go to eight years ago, sure man. I bet he threw more jabs eight years ago than when he wasn't a boxer, agree? What facts are you talking about man?, we're talking about improvements style-wise, physical improvements were there alright but the dicussion is regarding improvements IN THE RING. Coming in lower weight doesn't score points for you at the weigh-in. I don't want to see differences in this fighter?, how man?, I already pointed out various fights he performed THE SAME way against, especially a first fight with THE SAME fighter he already met. Different fighters can show different styles that he has to adapt to in training camp but this was a man he already fought before and I didn't see any major differences worth considering as IMPROVEMENTS here and I already answered why.
Scapegoats? Role models? I think you are making far to much of this. Valuev should absolutely be leaning on his opponents in clinches, distributing that weight, legally or illegally, he's started doing that, he's showing improvements in doing that. The comparison with Lewis came about because he is a fighter, generally bigger than his opponents, who utilised this tactic. It's not a jusfitcation or a licence. It's a relevant observation. I'll continue to make them, when I can.
Not enough right hands at all, his jabs were landing and landing a lot though there are moments were Ruiz ducked some of them, backed off from them and blocked them but the majority did land clean, yes.
You tell me. You've conceeded that Valuev came in lighter and that he used leaning affectively for the first time, but you don't conceed that there are any improvements. I find that odd. I've ALWAYS claimed that his defense was better, this isn't new. Smothering and leaning on the inside are absolutley a part of good defensive boxing. "Insane improvements"? I think that Valuev looked better distributing his weight defensively on the inside, I think he was lighter than he has been since 2001 and that that will help him with conservation of energy and speed, I think his jab has improved in form and in frequency of doubling up. I'm surprised how confident you are that there is no improvement in his % of having doubled up if you haven't seen numbers. Improvements in mobility and stamina are almost universally associated with weight.
Just draw the parallel to another B or C level fighter, you don't need to degrade an ATG in your illustration by likening him to Valuev, when there is the history of the whole sport...and all of it's boxers to choose from. Holding is wrong...leaning on your opponent is wrong. Holding is not legal...it is wrongly tolerated, the referees are lax in calling for the break these days...but that doesn't change the fact that they are rightly empowered to break every hold...and should be held accountable in doing so. I will cheer for any opponent who does more dastardly deeds in return. If these *******s don't want to fight fair...head butts, cuts, rabbit punches, kidney punches, hitting after the bell and break...it's all good.
You probably didn't understand me properly, I did say that he used that the first time but being warned once and being deducted once for it doesn't make it an improvement. It only makes it an improvement if you know how to do it and get away with it. So not being new doesn't make it an improvement. He distributed his weight alright but in my opinion looked tired late in the fight which didn't really show any improvements in that department, for a big man like that to be pressured the way he was he will eventually get tired, it's only logical. His jab remains the same to me and I've seen his other fights especially the recent ones all the way from the Donald fight till this one earlier today. I'm actually surprised how confident you are the man showed major improvements when I have TWO eyes and saw his fight like the rest of his fights yet fail to spot them. Not just that but I also had private chat discussions with hardcore Valuev fans that openly stated his performance tonight was dissapointing than a performance full of noticable accurate improvements. Do I believe one guy or three and my own eyes?, you tell me. His stamina didn't show that improvement, coming lighter in weight is a physical improvement as I said but performance-wise I didn't see anything new, he did what he always does. Coming in lower weight doesn't suggest we'll see major improvements in boxing STYLE and ABILITY.
Jesus! Lewis is a big man who distributed his weight on the inside beautifully! Valuev has shown signs of learning these skills. If it offends you that I chose to compare a great to a non-great, that's just to bad. Fine. I don't understand what any of this has to do with a fighter learning a technique to turn this apparently unfortunate state of affairs to his advantage.
I hope you have a level of consistency in other situations...like an advocacy for all forms of rulebreaking...
This is getting really tiresome, but I will go around with you one more time. I totally disagree. If he loses a point, that is a shame, but a man with weight advantage of up to 100lbs over his opponents MUST learn the technque of weight distribution with a view to draining his opponents in a clinch, whether or not this costs him a point. Of course, further improvement would be doing so in a way where the rules are not broken or ARE broken but don't see him docked. "Always" for the purposes of this thread, not since Valuev turned pro. You said "now you claim that his defence is better than before", but I was not making a claim that I hadn't made throughout the thread, it's just that you didn't understand that I considered distribution of weight during in-fighting as a part of defensive boxing more generally. And here we see, finally, a tiny improvement that we can agree upon! YOu are absolutley correct. Also logical, less weight, less likely to gas early. I also feel this swimming he's been doing is likely to help him with his stamina issues. OK. Well, it seems you've agreed with both of us, having disagreed with me in the main but admitted that he "did distribute his weight alright" in this post. I think he looked lighter on his feet and less pondorous when moving back. But agree to disagree.
Sure, let's consider that as an improvement for a second though I disagree because he failed to apply it affectively enough and getting away with it like Lewis/Wladimir and many others did. Do you think leaning on his opponent is an improvement based on boxing style and ability?, that's pretty much like saying throwing a lowblow is a major improvement, both are illegal and could cause point deductions and disqualifications. It's a smart illegal type of improvement which all fighters have but he didn't apply it good enough to make it an improvement added to his short list of abilities. Though you claimed he proved to be better defensively so I took it that way. About distribution of weight being a part of defensive boxing, I didn't really see how Valuev proved that face tonight, maybe you did but I didn't. Swimming is great to improve stamin and I heard he was doing it too but I didn't see his stamina being better in this fight, if anything I thought it was slightly worse than usual as did many others. How did I agree that he distributed his weight properly in that post? Don't think he looked lighter on his feet, he looked pretty much similar to how he always did on his feet to be honest and if his weight was a major improvement then he wouldn't have been tired late in the fight. He didn't look that tired late against Ruiz the first time to be honest so maybe he overtrained, I really don't know but as far as showing improvements in the legs, stamina, jabs or just improvements IN GENERAL then I disagree.
Valuev is a freak and a fraud that Wlad would easily expose, shitty fighters like Valuev and Ruiz are the main reasons why boxing is losing ground to MMA these guys are horrible yet they the top tier of the division. This is truely the weakest era of HWs ever, the 80's HWs weren't great but they were definetly better than today sad bunch of fighters.
If you want to distribute weight on your opponent within the rules of boxing, you do it with your fist...that's the only "weight distribution skill" worthy of praise.
Wlad himself is part of the reason for the weak HW division, with his shitty performances lately. Wlad would probably beat Valuev but both of them being very tentative, it has the potential to be very ugly, clinch filled fight. In not a big Ruiz fan at all but he fought a good fight today and would probably give Wlad all he could handle.